There has always been a great deal of debate on the subject of when and how bloggers should be compensated by brands for what they do. Making money blogging is not the easiest thing in the world to pull off and very little about it is cut and dried or “one size fits all”. Brands, PR agencies and bloggers all have widely varying policies when it comes to when compensation is appropriate and what that compensation should be.
I attended a blogging conference this weekend in Park City. Evo: The evolution of women in social media, is always a really great time with panels and 3-hour hands-on workshops.
I had a great time.
One of the more interesting (OK, maybe THE most interesting thing) that happened was when I sat in on a panel about working with brands. There were PR people and brand representatives that spoke on how PR agencies, brands and bloggers can all work together and presented case studies on how their brands and agencies utilized blogging and social media.
Evan Miller, Director of Global Communications for Aveda, was last on the lineup.
He did a great job highlighting how the conference co-founder, Jyl Pattee of Mom it Forward (and all around great person) went with the Aveda team on a trip to India to see first hand the things that their brand was doing to help get clean and drinkable water to the population. I followed the social media and blog postings Jyl made while she was on the trip, so I was intrigued to see all of this from Aveda’s point-of-view. It was a great presentation full of really good examples of how social media and blogging can help stretch the reach of a brand’s mission statement.
Then he gave a case study about a campaign they came up with regarding a bottle of one of their top-selling products. A blogger used that product for a month. During that time, they required social media use of Twitter and Facebook, 4 blog posts and a youtube video. Then the blogger hosting the campaign selected a reader to “pass” the product along to and that reader posted 4 posts, a youtube video and had social media engagement. Then THEY ‘passed” the bottle along to another reader. And so on and so on.
Evan said how successful the program was for Aveda.
I remember thinking, “Wow…that’s a lot of work and reader exposure for one product. What is their compensation for it?”
And that’s when things got really interesting.
One phrase uttered by the Aveda rep pretty much turned everything on its head and created the most talked-about panel at the conference. It caught me so off guard and by surprise that I tweeted it:
The fact that Estee Lauder was brought into the mix and the fact that they were joining in with Aveda on this stance didn’t exactly calm things down. (Edited to add that Estee Lauder purchased Aveda in 1997, which makes this united standard on blogging compensation make way, WAY more sense, IMO. But at the time and if you are an average person (like me) that wasn’t aware that EL owned Aveda it sounded like major corporations were forming a mafia and having some back room meetings to sign a beauty corporation Magna Carta of “WE WILL NOT PAY BLOGGERS MONEY” or something.)
And things kind of erupted–both online and in the panel.
I don’t know that I can recall sitting in a panel with so much heated debate, tension and passionate feeling.
It was DEFINITELY the talk of the conference.
The community took over and Mr. Miller didn’t really get a chance to clarify his position and many left feeling confused, impassioned, heated and engaged. On Twitter, people were talking up a storm about it with very strong opinions from PR people…
…and strong feeling, reaction and commentary from bloggers:
“So… after these two great speakers, the third got up there. Oh boy! Evan Miller from Aveda began speaking about his Company’s philosophy of working with bloggers. In a nutshell… Aveda does NOT believe in paying bloggers. Well… one thing you do not tell a room full of bloggers is that you don’t believe in PAYING them for the hard work they do promoting YOUR Company! Big No No! There was certainly a hush in the room until Ted Rubin spoke up to defend the blogging process with regards to promoting brands and their products. Thank you Ted for being our voice. Needless to say, the incident spread like… well, like a social media wildfire.”
And I left the room still wondering if Aveda wanted all those posts, social media engagement and a video for a bottle of hair goo? (Awesomely effective and insanely delicious smelling hair goo, but hair goo none the less.)
Fortunately, Aveda took to Twitter and said that they would be willing to have a sit down to clarify their policies with anyone who wanted to discuss it. So, I went to The EVO Aveda suite and spoke with Mr. Miller while sipping some of their very delicious water.
Evan was a great guy, very gracious in conversation and he readily agreed that his wording in that panel was poor.
Not only did I appreciate this but I could totally relate.
I felt for him big time.
I mean really, how many of us put things out there or online that we regret or that could have been worded differently? I DO IT ALL THE TIME. Heck, I totally tweeted that “OMG! ZACH BRAFF IS DEAD?!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” And then promptly felt like an ass and spent the next week of my life apologizing, eating crow and pretty much saying non-stop “GAH! I AM SORRY! HE IS NOT DEAD! I AM A STUPID HEAD THAT FELL FOR A TOTAL INTERNET HOAX AND TWEETED WITHOUT THINKING IT THROUGH!!!!”
(It was awesome.)
Evan did exactly the right thing for Aveda by making himself available and accessible (even on the weekend and off hours) to engage with anyone who had questions. AND I GOT MY QUESTION ANSWERED: YES, they do additional compensation for the month-long campaign that is above the one bottle of product. No, it is not in cash. It is with a gift card to an AVEDA salon. (I’m not disclosing how much. That is Aveda’s business. I’ll leave it that it was absolutely way more than a bottle of shampoo.)
He also put this quote out to PRCog (see tweet above) about Aveda’s compensation policy for bloggers for PR work:
Since Aveda began working with bloggers *in a PR capacity it has abstained from compensating them with cash payments. Aveda has offered bloggers compensation in the form of Aveda.com gift cards, product, and salon/spa services. Aveda’s digital marketing team has conducted, on occasion, *more extensive campaigns with bloggers in which it has compensated via monetary payment.
See where I bolded, italicized and put an asterisk in his quote? Those are the little nuggets I wanted to talk more about.
After a lot of wresting with how I feel about compensation (and having several ‘devil’s advocate’ conversations with bloggers/PR people and brand reps alike) I’ve come to some conclusions. To me, and many others, not paying cash for review work and editorials that result in PR buzz is a non-issue.
I don’t mind not having cash compensation for editorial work. There are plenty of other definitions for “compensation” besides cash. Whether or non-monetary compensation for editorial work meshes with your business model as a blogger is, well, up to you.
I also do NOT agree with paid product reviews. I think it creates too much of an ethical issue. Danielle wrote a post when she was at Edelman (now of The Sway Group, below) that had a great quote in it regarding this:
“As a PR practitioner, I have certainly been involved in review campaigns. We have absolutely sent out product to bloggers in the hope that they would write a positive post. However, my team has never paid for reviews. We have never required bloggers to write anything at all in return for the product. When we send out product, do we hope that bloggers like it and write something positive? Sure we do. But we also understand that the most valuable blog post is one that is honest and REAL.”
And frankly, blogging has been mightily hurt by those that would sell their soul for a buck. You know who I am talking about. The greedy. The entitiled. Those that don’t disclose compensation. Those that so completely overvalue themselves and the ROI they can give to a brand (which IS important, people) it’s just plain offensive. The type of blogger that caused a restaurant by the hotel hosting BlogHer ’10 in NYC to put a handmade sign in their window that said, “I DON’T CARE HOW MANY PEOPLE FOLLOW YOU ON TWITTER OR HOW MANY PEOPLE READ YOUR BLOG. WE’RE BOOKED. YOU ARE NOT GETTING A TABLE”. (Yes. For reals. Ask her.) People like this hurt the integrity of the product review. As a blogger I don’t appreciate it. As a consumer that relies heavily on blog reviews for purchasing decisions I appreciate it even less.
But when you get into sponsored and promotional work the game changes.
I THINK MOST SEASONED BLOGGERS ARE FIGHTING FOR MONETARY COMPENSATION FOR SPONSORED WORK.
SPONSORED WORK.
NOT EDITORIAL WORK.
And this is where I think a lot of misunderstanding happens. (I myself am hugely guilty of combining and confusing many PR definitions and jargon in my head.)
So…
What is the difference between editorial and sponsored work? The Sway Group put up a post that had a really general (yet great) definition in it from Kristen Chase with the difference between sponsored and editorial content:
If [they]‘re saying, I’d love to send you product to try to see if this is something you might want to feature on your site = editorial.
If they’re saying “We want you to try this, mention this, tell your readers about this, and include link graphic etc” = sponsored post.
I have done sponsored work for non-monetary compensation. Heck, I’ve done it totally and utterly for FREE. Because what drives me is the product or the brand, not my pocket book. And some of my best memories and experiences did not come with an amount of dollars in my pocket.
But, I also like to pay my bills with actual money so when I am looking at a PR pitch and program I have some additional qualifiers I ask myself in terms of what payment I need like “Did I help structure the promotion?” “Did I brainstorm to determine ways to further the end goal for the product?” “Did I have to display a widget, graphic, banner or other images given to me by the brand?”, “Did I take time to participate in focus groups?”.
But where I draw the hardest, FASTEST line is when the brand wants to exert some control over the content that I write. That is the biggie for me. (Especially if their legal department gets involved because nothing says. “Holy headache, Batman!” like a corporate legal department. Heh!)
From where I am all “Hey, I love your product! Would love to accept that as compensation BECAUSE AS A BRAND YOU ARE ALREADY INVESTING INTO BLOGGERS” to “I want to work with you because I GENUINELY LOVE YOUR PRODUCT but this is a lot of work for me and a lot exposure to my readers so I will need more than a box of cereal to run the program. Let’s talk!”
And this is where I take issue and had a problem with Aveda:
I think in regards to the particular case study that Aveda provides for us (the month-long campaign where they wanted 4 posts, 1 youtube video and social media engagement) between “Editorial” and “Sponsored” is getting blurred.
As Stephanie Smirnov, President of DeVries PR (and who is my Bible and Personal Jesus when it comes to PR) said this to me on Facebook:
“A product review should never be compensated. If product is given to blogger so she can experience it, fair enough, but she has to disclose she got it for free. That should never carry with it an expectation of multiple posts or other deliverables, though, that blurs into territory of “promotional partner.” in other words, even if brand isn’t dictating outcome of review, the minute they want to control how and where posts appear, that’s going beyond editorial pitching.”
I’m still not entirely sure where I put the program Aveda laid out for us in the panel at EVO in my head. One thing that stops it for me from dumping it square in the sponsored category is that Aveda does not dictate the content at all. There is no ‘key message’ to portray, there is no approval from their legal department, they don’t want certain phrases used.
BUT.
It’s not really pure editorial either.
They DO want deliverables.
They have a set list of how many messages and what medium that message should be delivered to the audience. (And for many bloggers the deliverables expected from Aveda for this campaign would be labeled ’extensive” on the part of the participating blogger.) They want to pay in product to ensure authenticity but doesn’t that mean that should include authenticity of HOW the message is delivered? Would someone authentically post that much about it?
So it’s kind of a mixed ball game with this particular example.
Some bloggers will have a problem with that and their form of compensation.
Some won’t.
It’s Aveda’s prerogative as a company to decide and outline what compensation they give to the bloggers they work with.
And it is a blogger’s prerogative to say, “Sure! BRING ON THE AWESOME HAIR!” or tell them (politely, of course) that as awesome as their shampoo is, you can’t pay your grocery bill in shampoo.
It’s up to you.
And in the end, it’s been GREAT conversation and material for discussion.
:)
And finally?
Zach Braff STILL isn’t dead.
Just so you know.
*Edit: I have no idea who or what prompted the business owner to put that sign in the window in NYC at BlogHer. (And to be clear, BlogHer certainly had nothing to do with it nor do they promote or encourage unethical blogging behavior of ANY kind. :) )
P.S. I have been a loyal Aveda products and salon customer since 2007. Ask my (fabulous) stylist.
man, you are awesome. nicely said. personally, i’m so lazy to write a post about Big Brother much less a sponsored post about any product. I guess this is why I’m not in the running for anything.:)
HEE! I love you. xo
I was so NOT INTERESTED in brand work for forever.Then I got pregnant with Butterlump and I had more relevancy and need for it. So I tried it out and discovered that I really like doing brand work, but I’m pretty choosy to pick things that interest me or that would be a perk for my readers. And I keep a separate blog where most of those things live.
I have to be VERY passionate about something to be an ambassador and I have differing reasons for the brands I do hugely enthusiastic work for, and I feel like that is more a make up of my life and personality then just a motive to push a brand.
Still…you have to be choosy and selective and I also refuse to bombard my blog with it too much. (Which again, can be relative. Some think ANY is too much and I get that.) xo
Bravo Loralee. Wow.
I know that this is such a tough world for us to navigate (even those of us with marketing or PR backgrounds) in part because it’s all so new. But I am hoping this clarifies the difference between editorial and promotional for a lot of folks.
And I hope that Aveda doesn’t find a whole lot of folks willing to be a month-long “brand ambassador” across social media channels for a bottle of shampoo. Even though I really really like their shampoo.
Swooning at the praise from you. :) xo
It IS tough and really, there are a lot of us that are not hugely savvy in PR and so knowing these differences is important because it’s tough even when you DO.
Well stated. I sure wish I’d been in that session.
It was TOTALLY fascinating from beginning to end. And very informative, too.
Appropriate compensation for promotion (not editorial) is relative for each individual person and blog. What’s good for you may not be good for me.
I’m glad you clarified what the Aveda representative was meaning to say at Evo because I saw on Twitter when it happened, and the immediate rush to ‘BOYCOTT’ and ‘INTERNET RAGE’ was a little beyond what should have happened. No, they don’t pay in cold hard cash, but they do compensate. There’s a difference and a sameness. Again, what’s good for some is not for others. Do what’s best for you and for the good of the community.
Right. It got a little crazy. I can’t speak for everyone that tweeted but I was clear that it was a stance against “Monetary” compensation and tweeted the information that was available at the time.
As a devil’s advocate, sometimes what is good for the one isn’t always good for the community,(Thus why many cry “Stop doing promotional and sponsored work for cereal YOU ARE UNDERVALUING US ALL!”) but I totally get what you mean here. xoxoxo
Oh how I love Aveda products…
That being said, I appreciate this post so much. I know of a company who set up a program in a similar fashion with payment in very little product. I declined, then 2 weeks later wrote an email explaining why this was so wrong. They were borderline breaking FTC guidelines and some requirements felt morally wrong.
The owner responded with an apology and would possible restructure. More than anythig, seeing who chose to participate spoke volumes about their position in the blogging world.
Really great Post
Were they wanting you not to disclose that you had any form of compensation or something?
AND
” seeing who chose to participate spoke volumes about their position in the blogging world.”
Um, YES. THIS. xo
Forgive those typos- I’m on my phone with 2 kids in my lap.
Wow. The things that hardly come into play as a D lister are the ones you discuss-but we all need to consider them.
I get pitches all the time for sponsored posts, to send me product to try out with my kids (who are years older than the ones who should use them) and it makes me feel icky. Like the PR person doesn’t get why many of us blog.
Sure, I write about products I like and geek out about the ones I love-for free, because I’m passionate about it. It doesn’t mean that if a company wants me to put the effort in for them, at their request, that a bottle of hair goo is going to cut it.
The few campaigns that I was a participant in did what Aveda does and didn’t really convey in that panel-compensation other than cash. One of my sons got a nice room make over, we’ve had a few nice dinners out, and we’re still chewing the gum from yet another one.
I think the main thing that is going on is that there is a lack of consistency-in companies that want to promote, in the PR reps that are seeking bloggers and heck, even in the blogger motivation.
Serious stuff to ponder.
I’m glad you were able to get clarification on what Evan meant and didn’t communicate in the panel discussion. Is it a bad thing that I agree with him on effective compensation?
(The BlogHer incident you mention and ones I’d heard about the year before is why, even though I’d get a student rate, and I’d love to meet fellow bloggers, I haven’t actually made it there.)
I love BlogHer and as they are huge it certainly is not their fault that opportunistic grodiness happens in conjunction to their conference. They do their level best to discourage that sort of thing. I wouldn’t miss it for the world. I just regret that this ickiness exists in our community. That you would leverage your ‘internet might’ at people just to get your way?
Revolting.
And no, it’s not a bad thing that you agree with him…many do. Many don’t, and that is where the discussion comes in. :)
I don’t get that “I have a blog and I’ll write about it” mindset. Well, I do in the sense that if something bothers me, it ends up as fodder for the blog-I just don’t use that as a threat to get a business to do what I want, KWIM?
We’ll see where Blogger ’12 ends up, though I might go to one of the smaller events instead. I’m not going for the swag or the parties-I’m going to squee over the bloggers who inspire me and maybe learn something new and different. :)
And this would be why both bloggers and brands adore knowing and working with Loralee.
Brava, lady.
Muwah! xo
I love Aveda stuff and can’t afford to use it on a regular basis, so if someone offered to give me some to try out, I’d be okay with that, I guess. But four posts and a video and Twitter etc. about it? That’s contract pr work, in my brain. And you know me, I always have questions:
1. What can you possibly have to say about it that you can stretch it across all of these posts? (That anyone would care to read, anyway. I probably couldn’t get my MOM to read four posts I wrote about Aveda.)
2. Is someone really going to want to invest that much time in talking about how much they don’t like something, unless they have an axe to grind?
I have to wonder about companies “taking a stand” against paying bloggers, particularly if they’d never make such a stand against billboards or tv commercials. I’m not discounting the good work Aveda is apparently doing (as Jyl experienced) but a blanket statement like that is disturbing. Let’s hope people continue to listen to their instincts and push for fair compensation (and yes, even money) for time and energy expended.
Oh, and to Suzanne’s point, I’m shuddering to think who would have had the gall to bring up follower count or blog readership to a restaurant in that way. I’m a six-year BlogHer veteran, and for every asshat (sorry, Loralee) who does something like that, there’s a person like me eating bar snacks because I ran out of time for dinner. (I’m only an asshat at home.) The vast majority of attendees and incidents are notable only for their awesomeness, I swear, but you know what they say about rotten apples and barrels and spoilage. Sad.
And now I have to sponsor Loralee with Diet Coke to get her to tell me who this is so I don’t accidentally end up out to dinner with this person. ;)
Hey, no apologies needed to me! I both embrace the term “ASSHAT” and shun the behavior by bloggers that is exhibited to warrant the label.
(Re: the blogger(s) that caused drama in NYC at BlogHer. I wish I knew who it was, I just know about the sign. But if it was either a big enough stink with one person OR it happened enough times to drive a business owner to put it in their window HOUSTON HAS A PROBLEM IN OUR BLOGGING COMMUNITY, you know?)
Anytime people smell money to be made it causes problems. I have been blogging for 5 years and I don’t do it for money–I have never tried to do it for money. I do it because I like writing. I have received free products–editorial and don’t do sponsored, unless it is something I would consider buying myself anyway. I did a sponsored coffee maker post and got to give one away.
I think with anything, each person has to know the game and what it means. Like Mom101 said, I hope that not too many people are will to work so hard for a bottle of shampoo. It’s just shampoo.
I’m more a ‘reactive’ person. I don’t seek out sponsors, they come to me. Why? Just because I would rather spend my time writing about my life and my kids or the political differences of my husband and I than spend time crafting pitches.
When I started blogging you COULDN’T make money at it really. So, watching all this spring up and how it has changed our world has been both awesome and horrible to behold.
Well done! I think Danielle’s class really gave me that light-bulb-moment and really clarified so many things. She rocks. Way to hit the points, bring down the nastiness, and really start the conversation. I also got out of it that bloggers aren’t “sponsored” they are “hired”. {shoot yeah!}
Love ya babe!
L
Oh, yes, I agree, Laurie. Danielle and Carol ROCKED that workshop. (And I totally agree about the sponsored terminology. I thought about not using it here but honestly, more people would understand it if I used that language.)
Love you RIGHT back.
An uncompensated one time mention, maybe a link to the company site, sure, why not.
A review of a product, with a mention that you got it free in order to test and review it? Reasonable.
Doing those and putting up a banner ad? Nope, gotta pay for that.
That is why I don’t buy stuff from places like “Ancient Sea Power.” Why should I pay a premium price for the ‘privilege’ of providing free advertizing for a huge corporation?
Word, Joe. Word. xoxoxo
As a reader, I have little to no interest in reading promotional stuff on blogs. I can get that anywhere. I come to blogs look for authentic, interesting content, not ads. I think that once you start pushing stuff on your readers, you lose credibility.
Right. Which is why I am so choosy about what actually makes it to my main page. I have to feel mighty about it or have it tied to or be something my readers would like (or at least not mind).
And some things, I know darn well some of my readers will mind but if I feel SUPER passionate about it, well…I am writing it anyway. (Please remember this statement in the upcoming weeks. Hee, hee, hee.)
Mainly, I just Dig Doug. (Did I mention that this was the campaign for one of the mayors of Logan who sits on the Social Media Club with me? I am going to see if he can give me a “We Dig Doug” sign. Which I will TOTALLY mail to you. :D)
Now I know why my desire to blog is officially dead, unlike Zach Braff, who apparently is still among the living. Way to go, Zach!
Bwahahaha! :)
Excellent post! I had sat with Evan Miller during dinner on Friday night and was quite impressed with what he had to say about Aveda and social media. That was probably why I was kind of floored when he spoke during the seminar about Aveda taking the stand against paying money to the bloggers who are promoting them. I agree there is a wide range of “compensation” and each blogger has to figure out what he/she is willing to take in exchange for their work. I do think Evan misspoke and wish he had given a little more thought to his speech.
Yup. He was absolutely great when we spoke, and I think this has been a huge learning lesson both to him and other presenters watching it. It’s just one of those moments, you know? (And really…he directed a positive approach afterwards and his brand got a LOT of buzz and also Kudos from MANY for their policy so at the end of the day it is a win, IMO.)
I was in the front row of that session and this post really helps settle some things I was thinking.
You’ve clarified things in a way Evan Miller should have during the discussion. Aveda should pay you.
Evan didn’t differentiate between editorial and sponsored and I think that’s what rubbed fur the wrong way.
When “Don’t Expect To Get Paid” popped up on screen, it just sent the energy in the room to a bad place.
It made me wonder if they paid Jyl in shampoo for all the great work she did for them in India. I’m absolutely sure her work for them was “authentic”.
I’m cool with getting shampoo for in exchange for my honest opinion, but Evan didn’t acknowledge that there comes a level of work where money is required.
Again, great post. I saw you in the room and wondered what you thought.
I just think that many don’t know that WE don’t know the difference, you know? They use this jargon all the time, it’s as natural as breathing to them but many of us who do this rarely or are not used to it or simply DIDN’T KNOW IT WAS SOMETHING WE WERE SUPPOSED TO THINK ABOUT.
It’s a difference that often walks a fine line but it IS a difference.
Also: re: Jyl and India…I may be speaking out of turn here but I doubt Jyl got any monetary compensation for the trip to India beyond cost of travel (which is pretty kick a compensation) as it was for work with a charity. (I SO COULD BE WRONG HERE, but it is my gut instinct. Many of us do not accept money for charitable organizations.) (Again, again, I could be wrong.)
I rarely review things. I did a couple of campaigns for a company I truly believe in, but when a product came down the line that I absolutely disliked, I told them I would not write about it. I have said no to many, many companies. I have politely refused products, cash and trips – just because I do not want to invest that kind of time away from my family unless it’s for something I believe in. As far as commercialism goes – there isn’t much that speaks to me in the way of brand power.
That said, I do a few campaigns here and there that are compensated in cash, and only say yes to the ones that fit with me & my blog.
I think if you approach these things on a case by case basis, and do what’s right for you – as long as you aren’t whoring yourself out for every free thing – you can remain true to yourself and keep the interest of your readers.
WHISTLE AND STOMP!
I find myself the most motivated by the stories and situations BEHIND the brand that I discover.
I am still choosy about the work I do and I prefer to do way more personal blogging in comparison to my brand work.
But like you said, if being true to yourself means doing more brand work than the person on your left or right, that is fine as long as it is authentic and doesn’t hurt the reputation of the community.
Hi, Lauralee! I met you at EVO and you were kind enough to talk to me about this since I am just getting into the blog world and was confused about how and what to ask for as payment for blogging.
I just wanted to say that your advice helped me a lot and wow am I going to take authenticity and carefully picking who and what I write about much more seriously than I would have for sure. Things can blow up so fast online.
I think you were very fair here to both aveda and the blogging community!
Thanks! So glad to meet you as well and happy that it’s working out for you!! xo
Oh how I love the quality of EVO and want to go someday!
I used to be a journalist. I worked for two newspapers. I wouldn’t, and we couldn’t, take any gifts of any sort. Once a store delivered a whole bunch of fried chicken and it smelled delicious. We took it to the homeless shelter.
Now as a blogger, I take compensation for posts, giveaways, etc. I review clothes and makeup and such. I just don’t see blogging as journalism. The rules are different. But I welcome the FTC rules of full disclosure. I always try to disclose, out of respect for my readers.
Also? as a reporter I wrote paid advertorial several times. Newspapers are strapped for cash and they sell advertorial — and mark it as paid content. I do the same.
HI!
My daddy was a career long journalist at one of the two major dailies in Salt Lake. He started out as a beat journalist and ended up as assistant city editor.
For years and years I thought I would be a journalist, too, but I guess I decided that I like writing in CAPS! And WITH EMOTICONS! AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! way, way too much. :)
That is just my way of saying YUP, I see what you’re saying.
Now, THAT said…if a blogger consistently holds him/herself up to rigid journalistic standards, I really don’t see a problem NOT seeing them as journalists. There are several bloggers/organizations that I put on the same level. (But again, it has be full standards, IMO.)
Wait, is Zach Braff dead or not? I’m confused.
I <3 you for this. Best post, and you were actually there!! ;)
There are issues, and earned media is a dying art. But there has to be a middle ground. His speech/PPT at the panel wasn't good; the clarifying is but still problems.
Rocks. Totally.
Loralee, I am delighted to be your personal PR Jesus and Bible, and I hope I haven’t just alienated all my Christian mom blogger friends by saying that. You said in your post you were still a little bit fuzzy about where the Aveda campaign really lives on the editorial-promotional spectrum. I vote promotional, without a doubt. The minute you dictate to a blogger how many posts she’ll write, on what platforms she’ll publish content, much less how she’ll involve her readers (with a similarly big “ask”), you’ve entered into a marketing relationship. Here’s an analogy: if I pitch a story about one of my beauty clients to the beauty editor at Allure or Real Simple or the like, I can certainly have a conversation about *ideally* what the timing of the editorial would be (i.e. “Hey Beauty Editor, this new beauty product is on-shelf September, therefore it’d be great if there’s room for it in your October issue which is out on newstands September 15.”) That’s called pitching but I’m not paying that editor anything and at the end of the day, she has the control over how/when/where that product gets mentioned. If I want to see a series of in-magazine mentions of my product leveraging assets I’m dictating (e.g. “you must use my client’s celebrity spokesperson/makeup artist/skin care expert”)and I want it to run specifically in the Sept, Oct and Nov issues — oh and by the way here’s the suggested copy and product visuals, and we’d like you to host a reader giveaway of product samples as part of the content — that’s advertorial. I’ve blathered on about this for years; here’s a post I wrote about the advertorial/editorial distinction way back in the dark ages of 2009. It’s my old blog and the design will makes yours eyes bleed but maybe you’ll find it helpful. http://ssmirnov.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/are-bloggers-publishers-or-editors-and-why-it-matters/
I’ve found that the Christian mom bloggers are a very friendly and forgiving lot, so I think you’re fine. :)
It does seem like most people vote that it ends up being promotional vs. editorial because of the deliverables required. This is such a great conversation and learning experience for me…seems like I learn more and more every day (in no small part because of the wisdom and input of people like yourself. :) )
I’m thinking next time Aveda participates in a “working with brands” workshop, Evan might want to practice his presentation in front of a mirror–or possibly a blogger–so he gets the jargon just right. Otherwise he’s likely to get tarred and feathered at the next conference. ;)
Love the post and the clarification. I’ve only done a couple sponsored posts but they were for products I’ve used and would buy and I always try to make it very un-sponsored feeling (of course with a disclaimer at the end). I have a t-shirt business with a good chunk of debt and someone has to pay it off!
I did and do feel horrible for him. He was absolutely awesome during our sit down.
And really…I worry that all this means that PR people and brands will now try to endlessly gloss over their relationship and motives with bloggers.
I would rather him say what he did than to not be frank about how Aveda and Estee Lauder feel and want out of bloggers, you know?
Can I just first off say what an impressive post this is. I am so glad you found such wonderful definitions of editorial and promotional posts… I think that will bring a lot of clarity to some who may have not known.
Truly… great post… perfect place to start a conversation. And Zach Braff isn’t dead?
Thank you, muffin. I found as I talked to eleventyhundred people about this topic before writing that there was a LOT of confusion about the difference or that there was a difference at all.
I wasn’t there but I was so PISSED at the Tweets I saw coming out there. This helps me understand it a lot more. I don’t know or didn’t know that there is a difference in how you make money. I lumped them all together in a big pot in my head but laying it out here like this makes a lot more sense to me than not paying bloggers.
But what does Aveda say to the thing they put out being more like a bigger marketing or sponsored campaign. They still don’t pay right? SO maybe it wasn’t an over reaction to their brand after all?
This EXACTLY illustrated the comment I made up above to Stephanie. You are not alone in this, many a blogger thinks this same way. Heck, I TOTALLY did as well. I didn’t start working with brands until I had my youngest and felt that it was not only helpful but more relevant to me since most products are aimed at younger children and mothers with infants. I have TRULY loved doing it, too. Yes, the money and in-kind compensation is great but I love checking out new things and best of all…getting to know a company and brand better.
As to your other question…they do not compensate in cash for the program I highlighted in my post, but they DO compensate. (Evan gave me an example of where they paid bloggers in cash and it was pretty fair compensation.) The issue now is whether or not the campaign I listed classifies as ‘extensive’ and in the marketing/promotional category. Many feel that it absolutely does. I think there was some over reaction by a few in the heat of the moment, but also that this is absolutely a topic worthy of further conversation.
Just read above comments and came back to say yes! Aveda should PAY YOU Loralee! You saved their butts big time on this one. You are the best and myself and so many other up and comings look to you for leadership and guidance about what to do and not do online. You have done so many cool things and are nice to all but with SPUNK! LUV U!
xo
Hey! Sorry! One more thing! My link isn’t highlighting! Can you see if I’m doing something wrong?!
I wasn’t at the conference, but I saw twitter blow up when he said that. It is great to see a even-handed piece telling the whole story.
I would definitely need to be paid more than a bottle of shampoo to write four posts and a video and do social media promotion, but from the clarification you got, it sounds like those bloggers were paid more than a bottle of shampoo. Good for them.
They were paid in kind and it was more than a single bottle. IMO, it is still a LOT to ask of a blogger (and more so of their audience) but that is MY OPINION ONLY.
While it is not a program I would participate in MANY I talked to would be THRILLED to participate for the compensation offered. Aveda is so beloved and their products are so lovely that they have an easier time getting bloggers on board on things like this.
Thanks you! I love the opinion of Stephanie Smirnov, President of DeVries PR (and who is my Bible and Personal Jesus when it comes to PR) said this to me on Facebook:
“A product review should never be compensated. If product is given to blogger so she can experience it, fair enough, but she has to disclose she got it for free. That should never carry with it an expectation of multiple posts or other deliverables, though, that blurs into territory of “promotional partner.” in other words, even if brand isn’t dictating outcome of review, the minute they want to control how and where posts appear, that’s going beyond editorial pitching.”
Great thought!
Thanks
She is the raddest of the super rad. I love her.
I think if Aveda had expectations for the number of posts and specified what they wanted then it is their responsibility to pay for that work. Along with the bloggers saying they were paid. I wouldn’t mind free stuff in return for writing about it. I have received several free software programs that resulted in editorials, several of which were negative reviews. But if you require me to post four times you better pay.
Its awesome that you chose not to react in the heat of the moment and take Mr. Miller up on his offer to elaborate. Kudos as well on an extremely well-written and thoughtful post on the subject.
It tells a much larger story, but it still highlights a problem of perception and of appropriate boundaries within the community. People can get a little excited about being asked to promote a product or a brand and in their sparkly-eyed excitement, they forget to examine the product, the motives and the contract behind the program. Writing a plug for something you like or believe in is far different than writing plugs for every free sample that’s handed your way, and far too many bloggers sell themselves short by conducting campaigns for companies with little in the way of compensation. They are unfortunately treating corporations to treat bloggers as “free advertising.”
Personally, I like to see people whose writing I enjoy reading reap the benefits of their craft by achieving some measure of success. I read blogs for the writing, but if its someone I truly have a “feel” for and like on a personal level, I will treat a product review with some interest. That’s mostly the extent of the commercialism I’ll interact with when it comes to blogging as I typically don’t read blogs that exist solely to do product reviews/giveaways/sponsored posts.
On another note, welcome back, Loralee. You were gone for far too long.
I think that it would have been extremely bad form to tweet and discuss this panel without taking him up on the offer to elaborate. I’m glad he gave me the opportunity and I am glad I had the chance to do so in person.
I only work with brands if I feel passionately about them, I love their product, I am interested in their product or message or I feel like they are giving my readers something that THEY would love or need. If it isn’t authentic I would be a horrible experience for me. It took ONE time at the very beginning of my working with products and brands for me to vow that no amount of product freebie or money is worth chucking authenticity down the toilet.
And THANK YOU for the kind welcome back. I am extremely happy to be back among my friend that live in a box on my desk. :)
I generally post here with my personal blog noted as my website, but in this case, I’m noting the blog that has been paying me for my writing and editorial work for the past year and a half.
We do product reviews at Pet Connection, and won’t accept a dime for any of them. Our review policy is clearly spelled out on the site. We have sponsors, too, and if they’re ever mentioned, even in passing, we always state up front that they’re a sponsor so our readers are aware of the fiduciary relationship. Personally, I have serious problems with the concept of being paid by a company to say nice things about their products, UNLESS you mention clearly that you’re being compensated for your opinions. Fessing up is being honest and showing integrity to your readers and your sponsors. Not disclosing the relationship is just plain sleazy. It’s not my cup of blogging.
I’m even MORE opposed to companies that essentially demand you say something nice about them, but have no intention of compensating you for your efforts. That’s past sleazy, and anyone who does that deserves to lose customers.
Anyone who doesn’t disclose their relationship is not only violating FTC regulation but is also a weenie head. I have ALWAYS done it, even before it was required.
(You do great work, BTW. But you already know that I know that. :) )
Wow! Interesting. I saw some Aveda tweets flying around, but didn’t grasp what was going on. Thanks for putting it all out there.
A month-long campaign with social media integration is a compensated blogger promotion. Plain and simple. Nothing matches that sort of promotion save cash!
I’m glad I could clarify. It can get very confusing when you aren’t in a room hearing everything and just following on Twitter. (It was confusing enough sitting in the room, frankly.) :)
Wow. Great analysis of the issue, and I’m glad you kept your head about you enough to write something so reasoned! I have this mental image of heads exploding all about the room after that slide came up…
I’ve written for magazines for years, and if I ever got a pitch from a PR person asking me to work X number of mentions of a product into an article in a specific magazine “in exchange for” that product, I would laugh. And nobody nobody ever has made such a specific request/demand, because the rules are clearly understood; that’s just not how it works.
The minute specific demands are made, it is NOT a review, it is a campaign, and as another commenter mentioned, that’s akin to those specially-marked advertorial boxes in a newspaper. And we all know newspapers aren’t giving away that space things for free…
That said, I think in some cases a blogger might decide that the product or service is compensation enough for participating in a sponsored campaign, and I have no problem with that. Some high-ticket items could be considered akin to a fat paycheck, like say, a family trip to Disney or the use of a new car for a year.
I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea of writing FOUR (!!!) posts in exchange for some hair product, but maybe that hair product is really worth it to those bloggers. Okay, their call. But it does get my hackles raised that Aveda is making a point of “standing up” to bloggers by demanding so much work for so very little. Until they start producing Aveda cars (mm, yummy-smelling Aveda cars…) I don’t think they have much to offer in product that can fairly compensate that much work.
And a few people have brought up disclosure so I’ll address it here – every serious blogger I know ALWAYS discloses brand relationships, and in fact it is usually required by the brand when you’re working with them. Are there really bloggers out there who aren’t disclosing anymore? That feels so 2007.
Good points. I have absolutely worked for in kind compensation. Absolutely. But money is also very nice and very necessary to survive.
THAT said, bloggers should not expect to make a ‘living’ simply doing this kind of work on their blogs, either. If that is what you are attempting, it is probably better to take a hard look at your business model and change things.
Really enjoyed your article. I am a new blogger and this helps me think about my motives and where I want my blog to go!
Glad I can help. Motive is ALWAYS essential when you take on brand work…not just for you but the motive that you suss out from the brand as well.
Thank you for writing this post! As a newer blogger I really appreciate seeing this with the definitions you gave. I was able to follow it betterand form my own opinion of it. So thank you!
On a side note: I am a hairstylist that has worked in aveda concept salons. Their views on things are a little different so I can see this situation coming from their company.
You’re welcome! And I immediately have huge respect for you as a stylist. I ADORE Aveda salons. Since my first visit to one (I fell in. LOVE.) I have used Aveda salons exclusively since 2007 and I appreciate that they have differences. I think that in the end this is such a useful conversation for everyone to be having. We all have a lot to learn from each other, I think.
Thanks for a well written post! My undergraduate degree was in PR back in the days before blogging. It has been interesting for me as a blogger to navigate the ethics of traditional PR and the new blogging world. I’ve come to similar conclusions that you have.
It is such a new space and so much negotiating and learning is happening as everyone goes along. Very frustrating at times but also VERY EXCITING!
Great post! As a blogger, I definitely have trouble differentiating between “editorial” and “sponsored,” much less all the rules that go with each, so this post was really helpful. So much so that I’m going to bookmark it for later reference when I finally feel like I have the time, energy, and courage to start working with brands.
Thanks! As I talked to so many people I started cluing in to the fact that it was a huge problem and that many didn’t understand the difference. With many this is where the breakdown in communication and misunderstanding started.
Waitaminuet! You can get tables at restaurants if you threaten them with your Twitter and blog stats?! I totally missed that session. I’m tattooing that stuff on my forehead RIGHT NOW.
Spot on with this post. I love Aveda but when they ask for 4 posts, Twitter, and other social media updates they are including the blogger in ther media campaign. They are treating the blogger as a media outlet and should be compensated in more than a bottle of shampoo and a haircut.
As a “civilian” reader in the blogworld, I didn’t realize this much corporate involvement was in play. Naive, I guess. Its good to see an honest person blazing the path of what seems to be a new area in the field of ethics. It is exciting to watch it develop.
I can’t help but think about Forrest Gump and his ping pong paddles….
Loved this post, Loralee. Such helpful information.
I think that there is a fine line between blogger divas who expect to be paid for even THINKING about a product, and being taken advantage of/not being compensated for your time. It can be a tough call at times, but ultimately we can only do what we feel comfortable with and if the company isn’t on the same wavelength, move on. I think the big problems come into play when the blogger won’t let it go, or the company presses the issue and belittles the time/energy the blogger puts into what they do.
At a certain point, I feel like we alienate our readers when we let too much of the “sponsored posts” come into play. Editorials are one thing, but “sponsored” tells the reader that we are being paid, which sometimes hurts credibility. I tread lightly when it comes to how many/what products I am willing to do sponsored posts for.
I so wish I had been at EVO!! Would have loved to see this panel :)
A truly insightful post, and just the kind of discussion we need to have surrounding this issue. Thank you for shedding a sane voice on the conversation.
After nine years of blogging, I’m back to z-list status, which is OK with me. I’m so lost in this sea of new blogging. I went to blogher last year, (met you, btw, you’re way taller in person, hee) and just felt really put off by the whole thing in general. People seemed to be vying for free stuff, and the few panels I went to, felt like a popularity contest.
I get that companies don’t want to compensate for blogging about a product. On some level, it tarnishes the review. And that’s kind of why I haven’t really “played the game.” Because I don’t want to be forced to say something about a product if I don’t like it? I don’t know. I’ve always toyed with having a second more commercial blog on some topic, there’s tons I could say, but then I get lazy. And I could never do it with my personal blog, because it’s just mindless crap. I know there are people who have made a living at that. THAT? I would LOVE. I’m great at diarrhea of the mouth. :o)
Provocative post by @looneytunes about sponsored blog posts & where to draw the line. http://t.co/qOyFLVe
Awesome post! Thank you so much for sharing this. I have been guilty as well of blurring the lines between review & sponsored post. Now that I can see how you explained the difference, it makes it much easier to understand. I plan on referring to this in the future.
Thoughtful post on blogging and compensation from @looneytunes via @diannej: http://t.co/6Lzlf4yQ
Thank you for any other excellent post. The place else may anyone get that type of info in such a perfect way of writing? I have a presentation subsequent week, and I’m on the search for such info.
It also isn’t about the blogger but the readers of the blog that are having that number of posts put in front of, you know? At least that is how I gauge a lot of the things I choose to participate in.