Wikipedia defines family as “a group of people affiliated by consanguinity, affinity, or co-residence. In most societies it is the principal institution for the socialization of children. Extended from the human “family unit” by affinity, economy, culture, tradition, honor, and friendship are concepts of family that are metaphorical, or that grow increasingly inclusive extending to nationhood and humanism.”
I agree with this.
Mainly because nowhere in it does “between one man and one woman” enter into it.
I realize my definition of family is more flexible than some.
I’ll cut to the chase–
I am an inactive LDS (Mormon) person.
This means I do not go to church and can be quite naughty at times.
But honestly…my opinions on this topic would be the same, active or not.
I assure you.
I do not think being gay is wrong.
I think gay people should be allowed to marry.
I try my very best to respect the beliefs of others and their opinions. And it can be a challenge because I am at odds politically with about 97% of my “real life” loved ones. (And I cannot tell you just how much this sucks and is tiring, difficult and sad for me a lot of the time.)
I try my best to hold to my beliefs while respecting others.
A lot of the time I just stay quiet.
But when I hear statements that were made by Boyd K. Packer on behalf of the LDS (Mormon) church that I consider just…wrong?
I speak up.
I cannot hear quotes like this:
“If we’re not alert, there are those today who not only tolerate but advocate voting to change laws that will legalize immorality, as if a vote would somehow alter the designs of God’s laws and nature … what good would a vote against the law of gravity do?”
And this:
“Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and the unnatural,” he said. “Not so. Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone?”
And not vocalize how STRONGLY I DISAGREE with these statements.
(“Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone”?! REALLY?!)
I thought about picking apart his words and countering each argument and then throwing out years of frustration about this topic to you all as bluntly as he did, but I am tired. And I don’t think I have anything to say that hasn’t been said before. And honestly, this blogger says it in such an eloquent way:
“It is painful to be so at odds with my Church on this issue. It is especially painful to see the Church’s anti-homosexuality arguments take such a step backward; it is one thing to say, as other apostles have done, that the Church opposes homosexuality and that “we don’t know” why some individuals appear to be biologically predisposed toward same-sex attraction. It is another thing entirely to deny that God would ever create an individual who would be unable to fulfill a mandate of reproduction, or to equate homosexuality with pornography, which is a sin of lust, exploitation, and disordered desires. “
There haven’t been times in my period of inactivity that I have been grateful for my heathen status, but I am today. I do not envy those that are still faithful Mormons and have to grapple with this issue in their hearts. Because I KNOW it does NOT sit well with many, many members. My heart goes out to you and hope that you find peace how you can.
You have no idea what it has taken for me to stand up here and say these things. I am not really sure why this is. There is NO issue that I am more passionate, steadfast and vocal about than gay rights. I am not embarrassed about it, nor do I think I have been cowardly in vocalizing it as I have spoken up about it in virtually every single corner of my life except this place.
My blog.
It’s been puzzling why I’ve been almost paralyzed with fear to and it took talking at length with my beloved (and lesbian) sister, Linny, to figure out why.
She said it perfectly.
“Because, not only is it the Internet and subject to a huge audience beyond your control, you also know that this subject causes real loss and destroys things, friendships, relationships and families. You’ve lived it.”
And Linny is right.
I know how this subject literally rips loved ones to bits and pieces.
Because it happened to us.
To my family.
My once dysfunctional-but-devoted-and-loving-family was blown APART by Proposition 8.
And I do not think it will ever be put back together again.
And there are not enough words or definitions in Wikipedia to describe the hurt in my heart about it.
I’ve never really talked about it online.
It has hurt too much to write about.
And my passionate stance has caused SUCH heated argument with people I love and care for that I can’t think about it very much.
It has not always been pretty.
And I guess that part of me has just avoided writing here because I haven’t wanted to hurt people I care about or cause anger, upset, controversy or harm because friends and family who hold these beliefs are reading my blog.
But Linny is my family, too.
So is Nooncy, her partner of two decades.
And at the end of the day, I see nothing wrong, or immoral, or sinful, or dysfunctional about homosexuals that needs to be fixed.
I don’t think there is one thing wrong with my sister or or who she loves and how.
I do not consider her being a homosexual as a trial or burden she has to bear.
I would never undo her love for Nooncy or her place in our lives.
I love my sister just as she is.
And at the end of the day?
I’m very LDS and a little conservative, and I gotta admit I’m really struggling with the “Why would HF do that?” comment. I’d think if I had gay tendencies but was fighting those feelings because I loved my faith more, that would really, really hurt. Because if I knew I had felt that way all my life, the natural conclusion would be, then, that HF really DID do it on purpose, for whatever reason, and the reasons I could come up with would sting. A lot. :-( Being very LDS, it’s hard to say that, but there it is.
I’m a little burned out on the marriage debate, though. Why does anyone get married anymore? There are legal benefits, and I think these should be extended to every legally official couple regardless of gender orientation. But people would still want to “get married”, for religious and social reasons. If gays and hetero couples had truly equal legal rights, but we called one marriage (if the couple wanted to call it that) and the other a partnership, am I right to suppose the gay couples wouldn’t be satisfied? Am I right to suppose that what a gay couple wants is social acceptance more than anything, and for those who care about such things, religious acceptance as well? Would legally expanding the traditional meaning of marriage really change people’s religions or their hearts? I don’t know what would happen, but I think any way you look at it, I don’t think it would stabilize this volatile issue.
THANK YOU FOR COMMENTING. It is seriously not a fun thing to go into a section full of a majority opinion and speak up, so know off the bat that I utterly respect you for this.
The HF statements are the main reason I spoke up. I have heard the definition from the LDS church a thousand times and haven’t said anything. He took it further. From the pulpit of General Conference. Where people of the faith equate that they are hearing stuff straight from the mouth of god. WAY more weight on those words.
And the blanket implications that no one can be born that way? Not good. Or that change is possible if you just have enough faith. Again I TOTALLY ADMIT it has happened (though I do not believe in “turning”, I just believe some can find happiness without homosexual practice) but like I said…it is so rare I equate it to the percentage of Pancreatic Cancer survival. It happens but…
I’ve seen so many crushed under this wheel. Or they marry really, REALLY wanting that life and boom…it is impossible for them. I suppose I could be happy enough married to a woman but not really. Much of it would be hell.
Moving on…Can you really blame someone for wanting to get married when they are with the love of their life, though?
Some people would be ok with unions, others want the whole kit and kaboodle. My sister would be ok with unions if every one of the many, many ordinances and laws with “marriage” attached to it were changed to include civil union.
And again, I would be much more accepting about this if people who want to protect marriage actually did something to make it just as equal, you know?
It’s not happening, so…
That’s the thing: the church has spoken up for equal rights for partnerships, and last I heard, was not taking a stance on the cause of homosexual tendencies. I was washing dishes and listening on the radio when he said this, and my heart sank, both for the people who will hurt, and for the people who would interpret it as permission to break that 2nd greatest commandment: to love our neighbors as ourselves and as God loves us.
I DO want to be able to reconcile my faith on this and am praying for help and understanding, and to know what I can do to help, too. Which might sound like it’s grasping for straws, but it is what it is: I’m starting to take the message less as “He wouldn’t make you this way.” and more as “God isn’t going to leave you stranded with a law and no possible way to keep it. He’ll help you through somehow.” Here’s hoping I can help someone through.
I agree. I love how you describe this. I know the church has stood for marriage definition, etc. and I have stayed quiet but this….It was time to speak up.
I truly feel for LDS people trying to reconcile all this. It would be a tough thing xo
Great post. So glad you found yourself capable of speaking about it in this space.
I totally get the fear and trepidation that goes into that. I don’t talk about religion or politics or controversial stuff on my blog at all really, but yesterday I posted about gay bullying. I was nervous how my readers would respond to it since I’ve never gone there before with them. I was so pleasantly surprised this morning and so proud to have the readers I do. I hope you are too!
I find myself struggling with my religious affiliation lately. We’re Episcopalian and we’ve had our share of controversy having to do with homosexuality in recent years (Openly gay bishop anyone? Anyone at all? K.) but there’s a huge schism in the church because of it. Many parishes are quietly (so quietly they don’t even admit it’s happening) talking about splitting off. Some already have. Most parishes are silent on the issue for fear of losing members to others in the diocese or for fear of them leaving the church altogether. This makes it difficult for those of us eager to find a parish that has chosen a side, because we feel strongly one way or another.
Some of us are eager to find a church that openly declares, “we love gay people and straight people and all people and all are welcome here”. But it’s hard. Most won’t go that far, assuming that their silence should serve as affirmation enough. But it doesn’t.
For many of us, the satisfaction found in silent non-condemnation is rapidly waning. We believe that gays can be christians and that christians can accept gays. Not just accept but love and embrace as we would anyone else! There are ways to have these conversations respectfully and with civility and love for our fellow human beings. Our religious leaders need to step up and start having them. The silence is too damaging.
Otherwise, the only people talking are Boyd K Packer.
And a vacuum will be filled, always.
Well, I didn’t talk about any of these things for a very long time.
I started talking about politics here because, well…I was invited to The White House and it was very public.
And I have not written about Mormonism much at ALL. It is a very dicey subject for me. I am weirdly protective about it. It may sound odd after a post like this but it is true. It’s like calling your family dysfunctional but PERISH THE OUTSIDER THAT DOES IT!
But this time, I don’t know…it felt right. And I speak out everywhere but here so it was just time. xo
I have seen DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE that children raised in same-sex parent households often grow up to be college-educated, gainfully employed, married heterosexual mothers.
I’ve PERSONALLY SEEN the sorts of things having a stable two-mom household can lead to. Like feeling loved. And learning tolerance.
If same-sex marriage is allowed, MORE GAY COUPLES might raise happy, healthy, well-adjusted children who will never have to worry about not being allowed to bring one of their parents to the school picnic, or not being allowed to visit one of their parents in the hospital.
WHAT WILL WE DO as a society if more children grow up in happily married two-parent households? HOW WILL WE COPE if an epidemic of happy LGBT families leads to a lowered suicide rate for teens, or a decrease in the number of children languishing in foster care?
I can only imagine.
I agree. I cannot see not wanting as many happy, healthy families as possible. I’ve never bought that it cheapens nor deteriorates marriage…wouldn’t it just encourage it more? (And PLENTY of heterosexuals cheapen and deteriorate the institution of marriage all on their own.)
I like that last line Loralee – how plenty of heterosexuals cheapen and deteriorate the institution of marriage all on their own. I wish THAT was what the churches would put their time and effort into – how to create strong marriages and families – how to increase VALUE in that institution – no matter who is married to who! There are studies being dome that show that families headed up by same sex partners/unions are producing strong, healthy families – maybe they are placing more value on the union/ on the family.
I am so with you on this! I have a family that is so against gay marriage and I just don’t understand it! I have seen the way that families have been destroyed by a person coming out and how they have to create their own families. They should have every protection under the law that everyone else does. I saw a family that cast aside their son, threw him out of their lives when he came out, take everything away from his partner when he died because the court wouldn’t recognize his will because they weren’t married. How wrong is that! It blows my mind how people who are supposed to have Christian morals can forget how we are supposed to love one another and not cast stones! Aren’t we supposed to not judge? I thought that was Christ’s job. I could go on and on. This is one of the many reasons why I am also inactive LDS. How can a church that puts such an emphasis on love and family and service be so hateful? I just don’t understand.
I will be very clear here:
The Mormon church does NOT condone cutting off your family because of their sexual orientation. It still happens, of course, but as an official stance they say it is wrong to do.
I remember being supportive of Utah banning gay marriage in 1996. I was 21, though and MUCH maturing and growing up has happened. I try to be patient and loving but man…it can be HEARTBREAKING.
Great post! I’m also an inactive mormon and ever somce I read about BKP’s talk over the weekend I have felt this huge sadness. My very active mormon family members seemed to finally be coming around to accepting gay rights and I am really worried that that talk has just set them back years! I don’t even dare ask them how they felt about it.
I’ve found it very easy to put myself in gay people’s shoes. I am married to a black man and 50 years or so ago, that was illegal. I can’t even imagine what it would be like if it was still illegal and people were telling me that my marriage would be an abomination and against God and unnatural. I love my husband so much and even thinking about people saying things like that hurts. Unfortunately there probably are still people who believe that but thankfully, my type of relationship is becoming so common and accepted that most people we come across just don’t even care! I so hope for that to happen for gay people too.They should be able to spend their lives married to the loves of their lives and have families and be happy. It doesn’t threaten my marriage and family at all!
Anyway, again, great post! I am glad you had the guts to post it! If it can even help just one person, or change one person’s mind, it will have been worth it!
“My very active mormon family members seemed to finally be coming around to accepting gay rights and I am really worried that that talk has just set them back years! I don’t even dare ask them how they felt about it.”
Yup. My sentiments, exactly.
I guess I will just try to have faith in people. A lot of the reaction has been heartening.
And I equate a lot of this to civil rights and why “separate but equal” doesn’t sit well with many, you know?
So today I noticed that my mom and one of my brothers both “liked” “I support Boyd K Packer” on their Facebook pages. Great… I shouldn’t be too surprised but it still was like a punch in the gut. I love my family, they were very supportive of me marrying my hubby, I just wish they could see the similarities in the fights for Civil Rights for blacks and the fight for Civil Rights for homosexuals.
I am sure you are sick of reading comments about this subject… but I just want to say thank you. I spent ALL DAY feeling like I was defending myself for feeling the same way you do. I read a blog called http://cofeeandcontroversy.blogspot.com/ who put it much better than I could have and there is another posting where she quotes from a book by Steven H. Lee. It’s called Falling into Life: A Gay ExMormon’s Journey. It was heart wrenching and so very true. I finally just stopped arguing and said that I have never found more acceptance and love for just being me than the LBGT community. (except I get crap for putting my toddler on a backpack leash)
Anyway, I love that you decided to write this and stand up for your beliefs just as others are doing the same for theirs and saying they back up Packer’s talk.
Too bad there is so much hate going around in the name of God huh?
“I have never found more acceptance and love for just being me than the LBGT community. (except I get crap for putting my toddler on a backpack leash)”
That was a seriously awesome moment. (And really…cannot believe the amount of furor over backpack leashes. We can get our knickers in a twist over THE WEIRDEST THINGS.)
I agree with you 100%. And I know the LDS church isn’t a polygamist institution and hasn’t been for quite some time, but you’d think it would be a little more tolerant of unusual marriage arrangements considering its own questionable past. Just sayin’.
Right?!
Thank you. I really, really, really appreciate you doing this.
Thank you for writing this. Sincerely. The more of us(meaning: straight/hetero gay-supporting people)speak out, the better!
I could not agree more. :)
Thanks so much for taking the risk and putting yourself out there in your safe place. I need this. Our community needs this. Our youth need this. It is this type of action that makes all the difference. Individuals willing to speak out, anywhere, anytime. Standing with us when it matters and not in the safety of the sidelines.
We needed this, and I thank you.
The LBGT community has given me a lot of love and shelter through the years. I can only attempt to repay it in kind. xo
I love this. Equal rights…just YES. I belong to a very Christian church with very old stodgy rich people that are adamant about many things regarding the church. So much so that we’ve had to create separate services for “new” things and keep on service VERY regimented. They don’t like change and they don’t like people to mess with their religious beliefs. But, you know what? Our choir director is an openly gay man *GASP* in a loving long term relationship. He’s not married, because it’s not legal in our state, but if it were, I imagine the entire congregation would show up. God loves us all and if we could follow in his image…well this wouldn’t be much of a post and Prop8, as well as others like it, would never exist.
Really? I think it’s wonderful that they let an openly gay man in a relationship participate in an active church role. That says a lot about them, you know? xo
I have to be honest, when I heard the news of the Bishop’s statement I immediately wondered about what response would come from you and Casey. You both delivered moving and compelling posts that remind us that just because we are people of faith (whatever the faith may be), we are not mindless, unquestioning automatons that blindly accept the unfounded doctrines that are spouted from the pulpit.
The God I believe in loves everyone regardless of skin color, sexual orientation or even what name his followers call him.
You are not alone. Thank you for your bravery.
Thank you. Casey and I IMd and phoned and emailed about all of this. We adore each other and respect one another, which is a good thing.
Well said, Loralee. Someone probably already posted this in your comments (I admit I didn’t read them all, I know, bad commenter), but if you haven’t read it you really should read Dan Savage’s Savage Love Letter of the Day from Oct 1: http://bit.ly/bORaOO. His words are impassioned in a different way than yours, but you both speak with a powerful voice on the same topic.
“His words are impassioned in a different way than yours, but you both speak with a powerful voice on the same topic.” I am not nearly so outspoken but holy cow was that a powerful letter!!
Okay girl, everytime I read your words I’m convinced we should of been besties :) I 100 percent agree with everything! My sister in law is gay and the best person in this world! I love her guts! She shows me christlike love more than any other of our siblings over and over again! Thanks for this post!
I love being besties with people so yay!
Loralee, bravo for coming out of the closet, so to speak. It’s hard to speak your mind when you know you’re gunning for criticism. It took guts to do what you did, and I and many, many others applaud you. Thank you for being our friend.
It is not just everyone I pass a note to in the middle of A Very Important Meeting begging them to be my BFF while wearing a tutu and tiara, you know.
Hee.
:)
Thank you Loralee! Thank you for being brave. Thank you for saying what I couldn’t put in words. Thank you for being YOU!
Thank YOU for saying those lovely things. Much needed and appreciated. xo
One question: Did you read or listen to the entire address, or just the excerpts you quoted and linked to in the SL Trib? While you still may disagree with much of the teachings and thoughts that were given, much of the things you’ve quoted were taken out of context and not really intended to mean what you (and many many others) have implied – most especially, “Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone?””
Honestly, I think that his words have been sorely misinterpreted by many. Please don’t misunderstand and think that I am deflecting blame – I agree that President Packer’s choice of words wasn’t the best, and can completely understand why (what I believe is) misinterpretation occurred. In my heart of hearts, however, I do not believe that he meant exactly what people think he meant.
I am open to the fact that people will disagree and hate some of the things that LDS people believe, but I’d prefer that we are hated for things we ACTUALLY believe, instead of subtle twistings and misinterpretations of what they THINK we believe.
Also, I hope you don’t feel I am attacking you personally – I am seeking to merely kindly rebut, but I fear that my lack of eloquence may not be received as I intend it.
By the way (not that you implied this, but many people I’ve encountered wholeheartedly believe this), not all practicing members of the LDS Church who aim to sustain their leaders are homophobes. One of my dearest friends is gay, as is my sister-in-law. I couldn’t love them more, and I do not judge them for their choices.
No, I do not think you are attacking me at all, but I have a question back:
Given how this has hurt my life and that I’ve seen what the topic can do, do you really think I would carelessly post something that will cost me dearly (I guarantee you there are very few ‘high-fives’ for this post in my real life)and put it on a blog with thousands of people reading and just base it off newspaper headlines without actually reading the entire thing?
Yes, I read it. All of it and honestly, my interpretation stands. And I am not alone in this.
I am curious what, exactly, your interpretation of it is, though?
I admit, I did not go and read the whole thing despite being pissed about the SL Tribune’s story. Thankfully, up in the comments, this link popped up. Thanks Amanda B. I found it very enlightening. And,,,,,enlightenment is good.
http://cofeeandcontroversy.blogspot.com/
Yup, it is. And I don’t overly blame you, Stephen. That happens all the time. I deliberately read and studied and pondered because I am blogging it and it is hugely impacting my family. So utter caution was needed.
Ha Ha, oh and one more thing…I am mormon, I am not gay, and I not only agree with you completely but I too have built walls in my family for sticking up for what I believe on this issue. I was once asked how I could believe what I do and still consider myself a mormon…ummmmm if only I had all day ;)
It would be interesting to hear, though. It was so hard for me to resolve when practicing. AND THANK YOU. xo
My only wish is that we can all embrace one another as humans. And being humans we will all make mistakes. Say the wrong words. Disagree on a myriad of things. But at the end of the day, love, tolerance, and forgiveness should be our main focus.
And may we buy the whole world a Diet Coke and wear Bumpits and Snuggies. :) (Ok, fine. PEPSI can be purchased for everyone, too.)
{Mark as unread in Outlook for commenting on later.}
Such a huge whirlwind of thought, in part based on your frustration and, in part, due to comments. Now to spend some time away, sorting it all out. I promise to come back say something, except for this: I heard the BKP speak the words on TV, and wondered then what kind of feek storm it would generate. The inner turmoil such moments generate for those of us who have testimonies of living Prophets and Apostles can be pretty heady stuff.
More later, Love. Promise. Nicely written post.
{edit} ‘the BKP’ to read BKP.
Eagerly anticipate your thoughts Mongo. Over at Lex’ place, I find myself about 99% +1 with your input.
I loved his comment. Had no idea he was LDS. I disagree with a lot of it but it was so damn thoughtful and well said. xo
“Had no idea he was LDS.”
Yeah, I tend to leave people clueless that way.
It’s hard to know who I am from one day to the next. ;)
Oh man…..Religion was created by man….whether the spaghetti monsters exist or not. The institutions, the ‘rules’, the laws…are all created by man.
Religions are meant to be intolerant. The whole idea of a religion is to make sure everyone else bows to that same belief…or else.
If the people behind the religion disliked hamsters…that would be part of the ‘rules’….
but religions want you to make babies who will continue to follow that religion and the leaders who run it making them all the more powerful…so yes…homosexuality will be frowned upon…no matter what.
marriage isn’t religious. Marriage is a legal institution that can be ‘approved’ or not by a church of your choice.
Anyone should have that right. No matter what a church says…especially if we all insist that we live in democratic nations where we keep warbling about the separation of church and state..though I don’t know how that works in the US since everyone in politics is supposed to declare strongly their religious leanings.
oh what a happy world we would have if religion wasn’t binding everyone up with such angst and anger.
I can see positives in religion. There has been many I time I regret that I was not made of a more Mormon-like cloth because the embrace of a religious community can be a wonderful, comforting thing.
(And many still embrace me, inactive or not. But it is not even close to the same.)
And yes, I agree that marriage has moved way beyond a religious institution totally.
and yes the very HUMAN need for community is powerful..more so than the spirituality that is supposedly behind it.
we all love being a part of something…..
“And at the end of the day, I see nothing wrong, or immoral, or sinful, or dysfunctional about homosexuals that needs to be fixed.”
This sums it up beautifully. Thank you for having the courage to put this out into the blogosphere.
It wasn’t hard to do online. I knew I would get hugs (which I am NOT bitching about) It was hard for my real life. So THANK YOU.
Loralee,
I’m sorry your family has been torn apart over this issue. That’s really the saddest of all things.
But I have to say I disagree and am not afraid to disagree. I will admit that I had to think pretty long and hard about this issue when the Mormon church (to which I belong) came out with such strong statements against gay marriage. What I wholeheartedly believe is – Love the sinner, hate the sin. Gay people are great people, too. Do I agree with their lifestyle? NO way! People who commit adultery are often some of the best people. Do I agree with their lifestyle? No way!! Do I want to legalize adultery because it’s a civil right for people to sleep with whomever they please? No way! And I’m not afraid of my beliefs. I also know that when church leaders speak from the pulpit, they are God’s mouth piece, and there is a lot God knows that we do not know. That’s where faith comes into play. Did Joseph Smith really understand how bad tobacco and alcohol were for the body when he received inspiration to reveal the Word of Wisdom? No way! Did the members of the church understand? No way. Were they expected to have faith? Absolutely. And so that is how I live my life. With faith, not fear. And I do my very best not to judge (lest I be judged, and heaven knows I am NOT perfect).
I admire your same resolve to speak your beliefs.
Wait…adultery is illegal? Had no idea. (I would disagree with that as well) :)
“I also know that when church leaders speak from the pulpit, they are God’s mouth piece, and there is a lot God knows that we do not know”
Which is why declarative statement like being able to overcome homosexuality or that people cannot be born this way are so awful to me. HE DOES NOT KNOW THAT. Mouth piece of God or not, he is not God. But I fear that those statements from someone that is believed to be a mouthpiece of God will give excuse for bigotry or that someone can be fixed, you know????
Hello, active Mormon here. I really cringe when I hear those types of words directed at the gay community. As if Prop 8 wasn’t a big enough disaster; it’s like poring salt on an open wound.
I really have a hard time imagining a God who would supposedly give someone a gay “challenge” or “trial” and then be completely against homosexuality. To me, nothing could hold a candle to having a challenge that I had to deal with every moment of the day. Nothing could hold a candle to being told that I was loving the wrong person when I felt that love with every fiber of my being. To me, it just doesn’t make sense. I feel bad when they are told they can reverse it. It seems pretty easy to tell someone what you think should be relatively easy to do when you have no experience with it and it isn’t easy (or possible) to do!
Fragmented thoughts, sorry if they aren’t making sense. I’ve had my conflicting views and challenges with Mormonism and wondered if I should leave the church. However, I’ve come to realize that I really do love it and I feel at home. But this issue I am really deeply conflicted about. I don’t know what the church’s role with homosexuality will eventually be, but I doubt that they will ever accept gay marriage. I just really hope that there is more acceptance, love, and tolerance to anyone on the other side of the fence.
I want to hug this comment. For reals.
you say “inactive” but I consider myself to be “recovering”
LOL. I know and many feel that way. xoxo
WE miss ya, buddy.
I’ve slept on it and still find myself wondering, not so much what to say, but how to say it in a manner that is reasonably coherent. Strangely, I feel compelled to say something, some of which may be hard to read. I’ll cop out here at the beginning by saying that whatever is written when I click ‘Submit’ is not the complete edition. It’ll really be more a matter of not being able to sit here all day and type. There is life to attend to, with that work thing, which there has been an absence of lately, being of paramount importance. Yes, you’re all important too, but without a paycheck I’m screwed.
A harsh (or perhaps a firm) side of me wants to declare: We don’t get to pick and choose which commandments are valid or not. We just get to choose the ones we obey. Think traffic laws. Speed limits. Stop signs. Immutable. While the laws are immutable, our obedience of them may not be.
A more compassionate side of me wept as I read through the comments expressing love, suffering, confusion, and even resentment. Homosexuality is an issue that affects each and every one of us, mostly, I believe, because we all know someone who is Gay. We love them, we cherish their presence in our lives, and it often rends us because of the turmoil they face. For God, it is no different. Being one of our Heavenly parents, how could we expect anything less of Him?
Elder Packer’s remarks may have come across as harsh, but what he spoke 1. Wasn’t the first time the Church General Authorities have said as much, and 2. It won’t be the last. 3. Elder Packer didn’t just pick his subject out of thin air, and you can bet President Monson was privy to what he had prepared. They do discuss things like that, you know.
Spencer W. Kimball remarked in his book “The Miracle of Forgiveness” , and I’ll paraphrase here, that neither any man nor any woman is born Gay. Whether or not we agree with the statement, I wonder: Does it change the truth of the statement? Whether or not others feel qualified to refute God and the things He has said throughout millennia, is for each individual to decide. On the one hand, however, we like to say God is omniscient (big word for totally smart), but then we presume to know more than He does about matters like homosexuality. I’m not a Psychologist or Psychiatrist and am not qualified to judge whether Elder Kimball’s book statement or Elder Packer’s comment in Conference can be refuted by medical or psychological science. I am qualified to say, unequivocally, that those men chosen of God who speak on His behalf do know the business they are about. Their comments are not whimsical in nature, nor need they be apologetic about addressing a subject they know will be difficult for many to hear. Let your testimony of them bear witness to the truthfulness of that fact, as mine has done for me.
Much of what comes to us from the Prophets or the Apostles may not be clear to us. We may not understand it, and we may not agree with how they say it. In the end, I believe it comes down to, in part, how we approach the Lord regarding the matter. In this case is it about whether we love or support Gays, or how we look at what the Lord has expressed about their lifestyle? Again, it comes back to one’s personal testimony…and faith. It’s not about having answers, nor about what to do to ‘fix’ a situation. It may sound paradoxical for me to state that no one needs fixing, but we really don’t. At least, not by others. We may receive counsel and instruction from others, but whatever course adjustments are needed by us as individuals are between us and the Lord to make.
I’m starting to feel as if I’m preaching, and that’s not really where I want to go with this. God does want what’s best for us. I’ve doubted that as often as anyone at times, so believe me when I say I understand the questions, the doubts, the anger, and the resentment. There have been moments in my life when I’ve been ready to throw down and have a knock-down, drag out brawl with the Lord. Win, lose, or draw, I have been ready to have at it. In this moment, however, I do know that He loves us. I can never express His love in words adequately enough for anyone else to feel, as that can only come by the Spirit of the Lord. For whatever reason, I feel a powerful impression to share that thought.
I don’t have answers for a lot of things, but I do know this: We are free to choose for ourselves which way we will go. We cannot change the rules, the laws, or the Commandments, but we can choose how we respond to them. I cannot choose for another whether they will be Straight or Gay, any more than I can choose which political affiliation they have. Even if I had the power to do so, I would not. I love each person enough to let them choose for themselves. I do choose to love them. I do choose to be their BFF, and to protect them with my very life if need be. I do choose to be proud of them and their accomplishments. I do choose to always welcome them into my home and into my arms, and to always have a place for them in my heart and in my prayers…not as aberrations to be healed or fixed, but as kindred souls equal in my eyes to any other. I choose to remember them during the holiday. I choose to remember them always.
I guess what I would suggest more than anything right now is to find a place of solace and prayerfully think through this matter. Put your thoughts and questions out there, and then listen. Just be still and listen. For some of us the three year old inside will make it difficult, but hold them and let them know this is important. You probably won’t get any answers concerning someone else, because they’re not your prerogative to have. Ask for answers about who you are and how to be better at it. One little piece at a time, it will come…about all kinds of things.
On to another matter.
As to whether Gays should have the right to marriage, IMO, that’s for a majority vote of the people to decide. Not some Judge, based on his particular fancy or personal opinion. I am deeply incensed that the people of California were overturned in their decision regarding Gay marriage, and not because I support or do not support Gay marriage. Had the majority of the people decided to define marriage as being between two people, rather than a man and a woman, what would the Judge have said then? That he would allow them the privilege of deciding the matter? What a heinous example of capricious behavior!
The people of any State and, indeed, the Nation, have the RIGHT to decide by MAJORITY VOTE what will or will not be. Legislative fiat within a courtroom is wholly outside the bounds established by the U. S. Constitution, and I truly hope and pray that the decision in California is overturned. However we side on the matter of Gay marriage or any other issue, this is a nation based on a rule of law and not special interests. To act otherwise is to put ourselves on a slippery slope that will destroy this country.
Anyway, that’s it for now. Active, Inactive, Semi-Active, Recovering, Conflicted, or just saying “Huh?”, each has their place in this discussion. I really do appreciate, Loralee, that you have the courage to open your private world to this subject. Each opinion, each sentiment, expressed here has made me appreciate more how unique each of us is, and I’m grateful to be a part of it. Thank you for inviting us in…for inviting me in.
Love and hugs forever…to everyone.
Very thoughtful Mongo. Let me contemplate your thoughts for awhile.
Mongo, You are the best. Truly. I love the thought and the discourse in this comment.
I’ll take chunks of it at a time:
“1. Wasn’t the first time the Church General Authorities have said as much, and 2. It won’t be the last. 3. Elder Packer didn’t just pick his subject out of thin air, and you can bet President Monson was privy to what he had prepared. They do discuss things like that, you know.”
1. I know, but they seemed to have come quite a long way on the actual homosexual person. It seemed to set it back a long way. It was more than just defining marriage. No one wants to go back to the days of “find a good woman and fix it.”
2. I know. :(
3. I know. Which is what makes it so…ugh to me. I know that talk was not just one guy up blustering about. It had the full support of everyone on that stand. And that is why I spoke up.
Much as I loved him as the prophet of my kidhood, that book of Kimble’s is so harsh and unforgiving that I can’t look at it seriously. I saw very little miraculous nor forgiving in it. And you need to know that I felt that was when I was active.
“It may sound paradoxical for me to state that no one needs fixing, but we really don’t. At least, not by others. We may receive counsel and instruction from others, but whatever course adjustments are needed by us as individuals are between us and the Lord to make.”
I agree. Also? LOVE THIS. And? You aren’t preaching. At least I don’t see it that way. You’re expressing your views. Tis different.
As for Prop 8, well…I see this as a legal issue.
I do not think it should have been put up for vote in the first place because I see it as a legal thing. Denying a contract to couple B but letting couple A have it simply do to their orientation and private bits.
Heterosexual marriage was never put up for a vote, you know?
And I know it angered many people but it’s seen by many as an illegal proposition. I have LONG said that this WILL eventually make its way to the Supreme Court and be federally decided on, which is how it should be. It’s ridiculous that you can be married in one state and not in another. I know that there are varying rules by state but the issue of marriage shouldn’t be one.
“Anyway, that’s it for now. Active, Inactive, Semi-Active, Recovering, Conflicted, or just saying “Huh?”, each has their place in this discussion. I really do appreciate, Loralee, that you have the courage to open your private world to this subject. Each opinion, each sentiment, expressed here has made me appreciate more how unique each of us is, and I’m grateful to be a part of it. Thank you for inviting us in…for inviting me in.
Love and hugs forever…to everyone.”
COULD NOT HAVE SAID THIS BETTER.I love that y’all stumbled into my internet world. You’re just the kind of person I love talking to.
Thank you so much for this, Mongo. xo :)
“find a good woman and fix it.”
Yeah, that’s always been a lousy idea. Get married and pretend the situation doesn’t exist, while the soul struggles with what to do with their sexuality. About the only thing a marriage fixes in that case is one’s budget…for the worse. Talk about two emotionally dead people walking. I wouldn’t with that on anyone.
Kimball was a pretty candid speaker, and, like you, I struggled through portions of ‘Forgiveness’. I think the difficulty reading that book kept me from reading his others. Whew! I loved the man dearly, but did think his writings overly harsh at times.
The Supreme Court already had the issue of marriage before it, but dropped it back to the States with the opinion that it wasn’t a Constitutionally enumerated Federal issue. The Tenth Amendment reserves rights and powers to the States that are not specifically enumerated for the Federal Government, and SCOTUS decided marriage was one of them. I guess we’ll see what happens the next time around.
Finally, you’re welcome. Thank you again…
‘wish that’ not lisping.
We have the courts to project us from “the tyranny of the majority.” Just because most people believe in something doesn’t make it right. Civil rights battles have always been fought in the courts because so often, people vote to limit rights.
If you take away majority vote by enabling judicial interdiction and legislation, you reduce the people to living under tyrannical rule. In effect, Judges become potentates. Our system is setup to separate the powers of government, but, unfortunately, there are Judges all across the land who do not abide by Constitutional restrictions.
Again, had the majority of Californians said ‘Yes’ to Gay marriage, there would have been all kinds of celebration over “Justice rules. Justice works. Woo Hoo!” It didn’t work out that way, and the losing minority threw a tantrum. Fortunately for them, they threw their tantrum in front of an openly Gay Judge…one who should have recused himself, IMO, because he had no intention of ruling based upon the law. He ruled based upon an agenda, which is where the capricious conduct comes in. Result: He went lame and ruled based on ‘Equal rights and protection’, but completely ignored the ‘Equal rights and protection’ for the people as a whole. It was all about Special Interests.
Loralee commented on there being no vote about hetero marriage, and I would have to disagree. The whole point about Prop 8 was not to allow or disallow Gay marriage, but about defining marriage itself. The majority voted to define marriage as being between a man and a woman; reaffirmation of an historical standard. From that we can extrapolate what is or is not acceptable to the people.
I keep using the word people, because that’s what we’re about…We The People. Not, We The People subject to the whims of Judges, which is nothing less than tyranny. People voted on Prop 126(?) to implement changes in Insurance laws, but a Judge struck it down as unconstitutional.
The funny thing about that, as with all legislative Bills, is that each has to undergo scrutiny for constitutionality (Judicial Review) prior to being voted on. If a Bill is judicially sound enough to go up for a vote, what changes after the vote? That a group didn’t like the result? No. Sorry. Bad answer.
Imagine if member of the LDS church had pulled that stunt with Polygamy? Imagine if they did it today (not the church, but the members themselves). What would the Gay Rights activists have to say? I’m betting Gay Rights activists would be largely silent on the matter, leaving supporters of Polygamy with their butts hanging in the breeze.
Mongo, your words have been marvelously eloquent, thoughtful, considerate and they clearly come from a place of caring and love. I appreciated what you had to say, and I’m glad you posted here.
And I couldn’t disagree with you more. You bring up two points on which I beg to differ.
The first is that Prop 8′s passage should end the discussion because the people of California have voted, and that’s that. The reality is Prop 8 was an illegitimate referendum. We don’t vote on rights in the US. I published a blog post a couple months back with that very title. If we voted on rights, slavery would still be legal, women wouldn’t be allowed to vote, and the only people with any rights at all would be white men who owned land. We are not a democracy. We’re a democratic republic. We vote for representatives who pass laws, and those laws are interpreted by courts. Prop 8 never should have taken place, and it was put together by a cadre of people who insist on the prerogative that they be able to tell others what they should and shouldn’t do, and who should have what right. As the judge who overturned Prop 8 said, the only defense for why Prop 8 should stand was “because we think it should, and the people agreed with us.” That’s not a legal rationale, that’s like a mother saying ‘because I said so.’ A courtroom is a poor place for logic you’d use with a 3 year old, but that was the best Prop 8′s supporters could do. Brown vs. Board of Education said separate but equal was unconstitutional. Had that been put up for a vote, Topeka would surely still be a segregated city, along with the state of Kansas. The vast majority of Kansans (and a pretty sizable chunk of the country) were perfectly happy to keep segregation in place in perpetuity, and would have voted for that overwhelmingly. Would you have thought that was permissable? It was the Supreme Court’s job to kill that hateful concept once and for all. This brings me to point #2.
You refer to judges derisively as potentates and insist they don’t abide by “constitutional restrictions.” A judge interprets the Constitution. We’re a nation of laws, not men, and the Constitution is the owner’s manual. Judges aren’t creating law, they’re determining what is fair and reasonable in our society, based on the framework of the Constitutional structure. Brown vs. Board of Education was decided by the Supreme Court. Prop 8′s legality will eventually land there, too. Ultimately, if the courts determine that a ballot question is unconstitutional, that’s the final decision. That’s their job. You can disagree and call them names, but that’s how we’re structured.
I live (quite proudly) in Massachusetts. Gay marriage has been legal here for more than six years, initially over the howling protests of our former Governor, GOP heartthrob Mitt Romney…some of you may believe you know all about him. What you don’t know was that he was a astonishingly poor Governor. People should come check us out. In the past six years we have not broken off and fallen into the Atlantic. Do you know how much gay marriage has affected our lives here? Not at all. Not even a little. Life goes on. People get married, people get divorced, people pay taxes, eat amazing fresh lobster and New England clam chowder, it rains, it snows, traffic is a mess every day, and nobody pronounces the letter “r” correctly (which really pisses me off, I have to admit). Sometimes the Patriots, Red Sox and Celtics win, sometimes they don’t. The Bruins always lose. No matter what, WE don’t judge. WE are perfectly content to live our lives without presuming to know how others should live theirs, and that’s worked out pretty well for a while now.
When gay marriage becomes the law of the land (and it will), the earth will not crash into the sun. Really, nothing at all will happen, except people will get married and raise families. Some of them will get divorced, some will grow old together. Just like it’s happening here, every single day.
Aaaaaamen!!!
Mongo: This was really well said and thought provoking. You articulated very well what I think is in many people’s hearts.
Thank you.
Well said. I am still deciding how to approach his conference talk.
I imagine it would be a tough call. xoxoxoxo
I am the heathen in my Mormon family. I love them and they love me, regardless of my heathen ways. A few months back I was pleasantly surprised to learn that they were not anti gay marriage (for non-members). They believed that non-members have different beliefs, and should be free to live as they choose and as is natural to them. I wish they believed that for members as well, but I figured it was a start.
After what was said this weekend, after such a specific stance was taken, I am nervous that it will change their opinion.
I am ADEMANTLY in support of gay rights. To keep the drama down I usually shrug off or joke about my family’s comments about Obama, Liberals, Health Care, etc. etc. etc. but gay rights is something I can NOT keep quiet about. I have argued for hours with my 80 year old Grandmother about it.
I am really hoping that when I go to Utah in two weeks I will find that they are not blindly following and believing this man’s words.
“A few months back I was pleasantly surprised to learn that they were not anti gay marriage (for non-members). They believed that non-members have different beliefs, and should be free to live as they choose and as is natural to them. I wish they believed that for members as well, but I figured it was a start.
After what was said this weekend, after such a specific stance was taken, I am nervous that it will change their opinion.”
I would be happy with that as well, but yeah…I share your fear. And your passion for gay rights.
This post has been up for two days. I haven’t commented because, 1) Loralee, you said it so well and, 2) Anything else worth saying, on both sides of the issue have also been said well.
But there is one question I would love to see answered. Why do we care what other people are doing with their love lives?
I live in a fantastic neighborhood with great neighbors. On one side is a retired couple who, for all I know are hosting “senior swinger parties”. They keep their yard neat and the noise down and most importantly, are not doing it in my living room. So why do I care? On the other side is a newlywed couple buying their first home, they may be on internet cameras every night, I don’t know. But they aren’t doing it in my living room. So why do I care?
I would love to be in a place where all the problems in my life were solved and I could care about what other people are doing in their homes. (mostly ’cause it would mean all the problems in my life have been solved) But I am not there and never will be.
I can’t tell any of my neighbors what kind of car to buy, or what kind of pizza they can order, or what kind of books they can read. Where do I get off telling them how to live their lives?
I don’t.
I can’t.
And most importantly, again, it does not affect me and I don’t care.
Thanks for writing this Loralee…as always, you are 11 kinds of awesome.
It’s just this simple, isn’t it? One set of people mandating “laws” for others.
If everyone just let the gays marry, we would ALL have fantastic neighbors … have you SEEN the yard a gay man keeps?
I kid, I kid.
Well, not really.
Love you, Loralee. This is another example of why I need you to answer those interview questions I sent you via email. ;)
Oh MEH GAH. I am the loser that toatlly forgot in the midst of gays, Mormons and High Fructose Corn Syrup! Will get on it first thing tomorrow. xo
It doesn’t change anything but it was nice that Elder Marlin K. Jensen apoligized for what the LDS church did after hearing first-hand from people who suffered the ache of the Prop 8 movement in California.
I really thought so, too. Which made Packer’s statements all the more regrettable.
You might find the blog “It seems to me” @ http://naytinalbert.blogspot.com an interesting read. It’s a new favorite of mine.
(Hi! It’s Loralee! Comment deleted due to asshattery and grievous errors of grammar. Have a super day, Nora!)
Ok, late to the party, but have two cents to throw in :)
Background: I am LDS, but have a lesbian cousin and my hub’s uncle is gay, so have family members who we love and respect who choose that life style.
SO here’s the thing, I do believe a homosexual lifestyle is a choice. To live the lifestyle, but not always a choice to have the desire. I mean, what is attraction? Is it not a chemical response to physical factors, right? So why is it hard to believe that some of us were born wired “incorrectly”?
So I disagree there that Pres Packard doesn’t believe that people are born this way. I truly believe they are. Now granted, I also believe some people choose to experiment, so can see where it might get confusing? He’s old, so cutting a little slack.
Now the choice part. To me, yes, homosexuality is a sin. So then to choose to participate or to follow those attractions, then yes you are choosing to sin. Just as one who chooses to have one night stands ( fornication ) or to have sex outside bounds of marriage ( adultery ) one is choosing to live that homosexual lifestyle. Will you ever catch me stating that is a fair burden to live with? Never. But still, for those who have the religious belief stating it is a sin, then we are to view those choices as such. But that is the key, that is my religous belief, just as orthodox cathloics might believe birth control is a sin and my church doesn’t, we have differing views on what is a sin… Either way, should they be treated differently? No. Jesus dined with sinners, why can’t we? ;) Truly though, it is the hate the sin not the sinner, but even then hate is a harsh word to throw around.
In regards to marriage, you have to understand where the view point religious institutions are coming from. If the law recognizes that men can marry men and women marry women, then religious institutions are going to be slapped with lawsuits left and right when they choose not to perform those ceremonies.
It is a sad and sticky situation, it truly is. There needs to be a middle ground, there really needs to be. Because those who are choosing to live that lifestyle, they need to have the same benefits as hetero couples. Insurance, hospital visits, guardianship issues, etc… I absolutely agree that it is not fair that gay couples are denied those rights. We just have to find some way that everyone can be happy :) Institutions that don’t believe in it, need to not be reprimanded for not participating in ceremonies, but it needs to be an allowed practice for the institutions who do believe in it so that rights are not being stifled… Don’t step on my toes and I don’t step on yours.
Sorry, lots of rambling, trying to express ideas, 7 months preggo and living on little sleep due to heartburn and being a stomach sleeper is not the best time to try to convey thoughts, but wanted to pipe in :)
~C
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I get frustrated at my tweetbacks taking up room, but I’ll comment here.
You are so on. Although I will probably still opt for my beloved Diet Coke. :)
I read it and loved it. (And dang that twitter trackback). I believe that we will eventually move on. These things take time and understanding. It can be very difficult to sort through it all, no?
It would be a very tough thing to speak out in the midst of active membership. I tend to think I would do it anyway, but that is after a VERY long road.
And I know there are many who don’t wish to speak up here because they disagree (am getting many an email). I don’t want to stifle anyone’s opinions or have them attacked.
Discussion may not change anyone’s mind but I still have to think it is a good thing.