There is probably no other place besides a blogging conference that you can have a deep theology discussion wearing a red McDonald’s Snuggie, a McDonald’s hat and drinking wine from a plastic cup.
And that is EXACTLY what I did with some lovely, beautiful women in Houston at Mom 2.0.
We each have WILDLY different beliefs.
(I was totally tempted to title this post “A Mormon, Catholic, Protestant, Atheist, and a Jew walked into a bar…”)
Lindsay, Catherine, Julie, Devra and I are like “The Blogging Super Best Friends” of religious backgrounds.
We all respect and like each other.
And today?
We are all going to address the same topic.
Together.
How do we, with our different experiences, talk about death with our children? (I also *finally* answer why I am not a practicing Mormon any longer.)
I have linked to their blog posts at the bottom of the page and deeply hope you go and read them. They are amazing.
You might have read the title of this post and had a negative reaction. And that is ok. It’s just…discussion about death at my house might not be quite the same as they are at yours.
For us, death is a horrible, hard, morbid and terrible reality that manifested in the cruelest of all ways. As many of you know, my beautiful baby boy, Matthew, passed away on September 23, 2003 of SIDS at the age of (almost) 4 months. SIDS stands for SUDDEN Infant Death Syndrome. We had no warning. No time to prepare for the onslaught of hell that was about to devastate and affect our lives for years and years to come.
My other children were 7 and 4 at the time. I was not there when they were told that their baby brother had died, and while I wish so much they could have had their mother with them during that experience, I am thankful that that is not yet another devastating moment that I have to relive in my head.
They were not prepared.
Not really.
NONE of us were.
We had mentioned what happens when someone dies here and there before that day in September, but never to any great detail. We did talk to the kids, but nothing formal, discussed beforehand. And honestly, we thought they were doing ok and “got it” for the most part. We absolutely talked to them about it afterwards, but they weren’t huge on the questions for a long time. I assumed they were just being reliant kids and just figured it out to their satisfaction.
I should have known never to assume anything when it comes to children. It came to bite me in the ass when I was driving my kids around on errands after Matthew passed away and Christopher suddenly, jarringly, piped up from the back seat.
“Mom? Is Matthew going to be a zombie now?”
“NO. He is NOT going to be a zombie. EVER.”
(Seriously, I LOVE HOW THESE QUESTIONS ALWAYS HAPPEN WHEN I AM TRYING TO OPERATE A VEHICLE)
“Well…if he isn’t going to be a zombie, can we dig him up to play with him?”
(Did I mention that I WAS TRYING TO DRIVE IN RUSH HOUR TRAFFIC?)
“…..No. You….Cannot….dig up your brother and play with him. I know you really want to but you can’t ever do that again. It’s hard and we all miss him and I’m so sorry because I know he loved it when you played together.”
“So…we can’t dig him up?”
“NO”.
Things got VERY quiet because I was REELING and Christopher was sad. Then I heard James whisper, “Don’t worry, Christopher. I know where Mom and Dad keep the shovels. They’re in the shed.”
Sigh.
(It’s ok. You can recoil or laugh. Or both. You have no idea how morbid the topics gets when someone close to you dies and how if you DIDN’T laugh? It would kill you. It almost killed me anyway and I laugh all the time.)
It was obvious that we needed to further address the issue of death and what happens when we die with our kids.
We picked a great analogy that was popular in our religion to explain physical death and souls to children. You take a glove and illustrate that as it is…it’s just a glove. Then you put it on your hand and move it around. Without your hand the glove is useless but when it covers the hand the two work beautifully together, just as it should. Then take the glove off. Once the glove is discarded and separated from the hand it is useless once again. But while the glove is useless, the hand can still move and exist without it.
It’s actually pretty snazzy and accurate to many faiths.
We made it clear that Matthew still existed as a spirit. That he was with Heavenly Father. That he still loved us and we still loved him. That he is ok.
A dear, long-time friend of mine looked physically pained during a conversation about this post when he told me that he believes when we die, we are just dead.
Period.
The End.
He didn’t want to hurt me. He cares about me and knows that losing a child is enough pain for someone without telling a grieving mother that her son is nowhere but in the dirt, in their opinion. But, no…he doesn’t believe we exist past this life.
Much as I adore him to bits and am truly respectful and supportive of him being comfortable with what he believes, I have to disagree for myself.
I believe in souls. I believe there is something in us that existed before we had a physical body and I believe that we will continue to exist once that body dies. No one can give me an acceptable scientific explanation for where that animation and beauty that is humanity comes from or where it goes. To me it is not explainable other than there has got to be something more than just this life.
The explanation at the time worked really well and the whole subject wasn’t as tough THEN as it would become.
Because THEN I was still a practicing, active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
A Mormon.
(Donny Osmond? Mitt Romney?? Ricky “The Ricker” Schroeder???)
Right now, while my name remains on church records, I do not attend nor adhere to any of the principles or the LDS faith.
I NEED TO BE CLEAR I AM NO REPRESENTATIVE OF MORMONISM.
I get asked why I left the Mormon Church more than just about ANYTHING about me (Besides, “Um..excuse me, but HOW DID SOMEONE LIKE YOU BECOME A 3-TERM PTA PRESIDENT!?”).
So, I thought I would FINALLY give you some insight today and cross my fingers that I can somehow condense issues and things that could well take up 6 volumes into one tiny blog post.
I am rather protective of Mormonism. While I am not active it IS my background. If I ever returned to religious practice, it would be that one. It is highly controversial and evokes the most face-melting hatred in some factions. I’m not interested at all in bashing it or hearing others bash or hate on it. There are like, elventyhundred other places to do that online, but this is not one of them. I’ve heard all the arguments and don’t mind discussing things AT ALL AS LONG AS YOU ARE RESPECTFUL IN YOUR DISSENT. (The delete key is my friend, yo.)
I’ve never had strong faith.
As far back as I can remember, church just wasn’t a great place to be. I WANTED it to be. Oh, MY the times that I would sit in church and wonder what was wrong with me that I didn’t seem to take as much…awesome comfort in it as everyone else. And people TRULY do. My brother, Rhett, is one of the most faithful people I know and the church gives him a true, deep happiness that I envy.
I deeply envy the comfort that it can be to people going through horrible trial.
I find that my issues (for the most part) were much more focused on God than The Mormon Church. (Though, do we have HUGE disagreements on many things. A post and discussion for another day.)
My faith in God was never awesome. I am not one to consider praying for help. I HAVE prayed, but it is not natural to me and usually it is on behalf of others. My childhood was hard and kind of lonely. I had a lot of things really screw with my head as a teenager and yet another thing ripped my faith into more pieces in my young adulthood than I could manage to put back together.
Matthew dying was the last nail in the coffin, I’m afraid.
God and I have been in a fight ever since.
And I don’t even know how I look at God or what his role and makeup is anymore.
Or Christ for that matter.
When Matthew died, every single thing I thought I knew about EVERYTHING was dumped on the floor in a mess and it may take more years than I have left to figure out what to do with them. I believe in some form of higher power, I’m just not sure WHAT, exactly.
I also know that when my little bug passed away I was initially VERY comforted. And I felt SPIRITUALLY comforted, even though that feeling would not only desert me but I would be left with my life in such tatters I would be looking UP to see hell. For a time, though it helped me.
And I am grateful for that.
Mormons deal with death as a whole in a very positive manner. There is crying and grief at funerals and about death, but not usually a general feeling of dispair. No veils or all black worn at funerals. There is huge, great, shiny hope in the after life and what it will mean to people. That we will all see each other again and the separation is temporary.The family is the primary focus. Temple marriages survive past the bonds of death, Families are eternal. If you go through the temple and are sealed, you are bound together for eternity as are your children. You will see your loved ones again if you live worthily and to prescribed standards. (And they are some pretty high standards. But again…that is a topic for another day.)
When children under 8 die, there is no test. They are exalted. Perfect, pure, innocents that automatically go straight back into the arms of Heavenly Father. The rest of the family will join them later and the temple-endowed parents of lost little ones will have a chance to raise them again after the resurrection of Christ.
Sounds lovely, no?
Here is the problem.
For many different reasons that are really none of your business, Jonathan and I are not sealed in the Temple.
Meaning…I am not sealed to Matthew.
There was little that was going to change that.
And when all was said and done, it was probably the primary reason I had to walk away from the Mormon faith.
I couldn’t take it.
Could not, could not, COULD NOT TAKE IT.
Could not take the thought of sitting there week after week hearing “families are forever” and knowing there was nothing I could do to make that happen. (Again. Long story.) and that my son was just…out there. HE was fine but what would happen to our family?
You have no idea the pressure, stress, worry, sorrow and fear.
Yes, I could have gone on my own but I honestly think it would have ripped my marriage apart even more than it ended up being in the end.
I couldn’t live like that.
And for that and soooooooooooooooooooo many more reasons, I became inactive.
If I had a lifetime of strong testimony and faith and comfort in it? I would probably still be there. But the truth of the matter is that being a practicing Mormon stresses me the hell out. I DO struggle with some aspects of not practicing, but over all I feel a lot more comfortable in my own skin. (Hey, SOMEONE has to go to the Middle Kingdom. And I am pretty ok with that as things go.)
I STRONGLY believe that this is what I need to do right now. I have had several attempts to return to church. It hasn’t worked out for more reasons than even I know.
I make sure my children go, though.
It was a decision made by all of us. They wanted to go and I am a believer that if you truly want to give your children a choice regarding religion and if they practice it, they need exposure to religion when they are children. I want to give faith a fighting chance with them. I don’t want my issues to be their issues. (And I realize MANY disagree with this, and that is ok, too.) Like, I said- I know plenty of truly happy LDS people that aren’t asshats. If my kids can pull that off and love it and be happy? I am for that. IF they are more like me and it’s not a great fit? Fine. But I want them to know that judging others for their beliefs and how they live is not ok. That seeing someone with a cup of coffee, cigarette, beer or wearing a tank top does not mean they are evil or unhappy with how they choose to live.
That is important to me.
They have many great examples of strong, faithful Mormons around them. Like their grandparents that take them to services every other week. They also have examples of people who are very different and not practicing that fiercely love them and have that love returned. Like their mother and father who make sure that they are able to go.
My children ask me all the time if I am going back to church. I tell them I love them. That I am ok. They are ok. That we will all be ok and that I truly believe that. I am supportive of them being religious. I tell them I support whatever they want to do with church. That I will make sure they go every week, that I send them to youth camps, that I will pay for their 2-year missionary service at 19 if they are worthy and want to serve. If they want to pray (and they usually do) we pray. I never stop anything they want to do religiously.
I have told my children that no matter what they discover about themselves and grow into: religious, non-religious, conservative, liberal, straight, gay, purple or alien that more than anything in this world, I want them to just be happy and comfortable with who they are deep at their core. Whatever path serves that is the one I hope they follow.
But.
As for me returning to church I will not be pushed faster and more than I want to/can walk in the area of faith.
I will go to church for no one but myself. Because I have done that and done that and it only serves to make me feel inadequate and miserable a huge portion of the time.
And right now?
I can’t. It’s not where I am at. I don’t know if it ever will be again.
And because Mormonism isn’t simply a religion but a culture and is such a huge part of my daily life, part of that makes me sad.
But not enough to change it.
I feel good.
Just as I am.
Happy.
Finally.
So?
For now?
The only thing that I really know for certain is that I don’t know a damn thing for certain.
But what I utterly believe with my heart and soul is that my son keeps existing. If I did not, I would break into a thousand more pieces than I could ever put back together again.
And?
I also believe that he is ok.
Beyond that, all I can hope is that after trying to wade through hell to get through a life on earth without him in it?
I will be ok, too.
**
Please take some time to explore the sister posts on this subject by my fellow “Super Best Friends”, and truly beautiful women, at their blogs below:
SUBURBAN TURMOIL (This was Lindsay’s brain child)
Filed under: 
When I read your title I smiled. I could just see the conversation unfolding innocently…as it did. :)
I love you and your honesty, and agree (though I am not LDS, and therefore don’t know all the ins and outs of your lapsed religion) that your Little Bug is waiting for you, and you will know him and he you.
(off to read the others now)
I abso-frickin-lutely love this post! It is very well said. And I did laugh! Sometimes laughter is the only thing that can make you sane & God did give the gift of humor.
I’m Southern Baptist & pretty conservative but firmly believe (thanks to my parents) that we can agree to disagree on practically any issue (even religion) while treating others with dignity & respect. I believe in our souls existing after death as well but the whole concept of not sealing is beyond me. I can understand where that would be the final breaking point for you – the thought of not seeing your child in Heaven.
I sincerely hope you find God again in some sort of personal meaningful relationship, whether inside your established church/religion or not. I’m proud of you for encouraging your kids to seek their own faith.
And shame on the Mormon bashers! Regardless of difference of opinion/doctrine, being ugly is never acceptable. Off to read the other blogs you listed.
Every time I have a sweet and positive encounter with a Southern Baptist it makes me happy. My grandmother Bernice was just…a hateful anti-mormon. It hurt me DEEPLY. When I was growing I thought all Southern Baptist were like that.
And I say that knowing there are cruel haters everywhere but you might be interested to know you helped me a lot here. :) xoxooxox
I wanted this posted in reply to Elizabeth because I am also Southern Baptist. But, like you, am not practicing. I was brought to church by my grandmother at a young age-I joined the church and was baptized at 9. I now know that the only reason I joined was because of the attention you received when you joined. I watched Sunday after Sunday as a visitor would sit in what I called The Joining Chair and were then swarmed by the Deacons and the church secretary and then the pastor. I remember feeling special when I took that seat.
Just writing this makes me want to write my own post.
I just wanted to say. I agree wholeheartedly with Elizabeth. I may not understand everything about the Mormon faith (I only know what I do know from TV) and would never judge. I don’t think others should either. It is beautiful that you allow your children to explore their fait for themselves. My mother and my husbands mother did the same thing with us even though they did not attend church themselves.
I also want to thank you. My husbands mother past a week ago today and when I began reading your post, I knew it was something to share with our family. There are 4 grandchildren who may still not understand that Grammie is still very much a part of us even though we can’t physically see her. Reading your post gives me courage to talk to my truthfully when he has these questions.
You’re an awesome mom and you inspire me. Off to read the others.
First, I totally snickered when I read the title – that’s just who I am. There are a lot of posts about religion and faith lately…I keep thinking I’m going to add my 2 cents, but then I don’t. So I’ll give you 1 cent here =)
I am not Mormon, but I have to say that whether they say you are sealed to your son or not, I say you are. There is a connection that cannot be broken by death – he is fine, and you will be with him again, I truly believe that. I can’t believe in any God that would keep a mother from her child because she didn’t do some ceremony (obviously it’s bigger than that, but you know what I mean I hope) in a church.
I don’t have absolute Faith like some people…I have a hard time because of science, truthfully, and because the bible was written by people, not God – and people make mistakes and things are subjective. Anyway, I think the fact that you are open with your kids and that they go to church even though you don’t is great.
I….well, I hope this doesn’t offend you (or anyone)….but I don’t understand, probably because of my semi-faith, how one can even believe in or trust in God after he takes a child. There is nothing in my religious background that makes it ok…and I can’t imagine not being angry and walking away…. it’s hard all the way around. But when people say that a child is with God, that doesn’t comfort ME, it pisses me off.
Anyway, I got off on a tangent and should probably write my own post! hehe
I think this is a great post and you are amazing. xo
I think it’s wonderful that you are able to provide that kind of support to your children’s individual religious decision. I was raised Baptist and am non-practicing for many reasons, so I can empathize with your internal conflict. To me, it’s important to recognize that spirituality and religion may have connections, but they are not mutually exclusive. I really believe you can have a spiritual connection to God and your individual beliefs without attending services or practicing your religion. Your spirituality gives you the comfort and belief that Matthew continues to exist and is waiting for you – and that makes it true.
I do confess to not being a very spiritual person, either. I’ve always wished I was more that way but in the end, I have to just be happy as I am.
Fascinating read Loralee. I love learning about people and how they think and thank you for your honesty.
Also. The glove analogy? Perfection.
There’s a movie you should watch – It’s called “What Dreams May Come”, starring Robin Williams, Annabella Sciorra, and Cuba Gooding, Jr. It, better than anything I could say, demonstrates what I believe about the power of Love. Watch it – I believe you’ll understand this movie more than most.
[...] writing this post, I’m honored to be writing in the company of Catherine, Devra, Lindsay, and Loralee on the topic of explaining death to children. The five of us have different religious/spiritual [...]
I can’t figure out why I can’t reply to Lou on the post, so I’m doing it here.
LOVED that movie.
I can understand how that would be hard for a child to understand. It’s good you were able to handle the conversation with them, however painful it may be.
The title was not off-putting. I agree.
Going to check out the others as well.
Nothing offended me. I think this was a good post… I can’t imagine trying to answer a question like that while I was mourning. Kids are so great.
For me, I have found that my views on God were very much influenced by my “religion”. Most of what I grew up believing about God was from religion. And that is not what God is about. I have found Him to be full of love for us. It took some time to disengage my religion with my relationship to God. This is personal, I understand, but for myself, I realized that He wasn’t some being in Heaven waiting for us to screw up and then zap us with lightening. And again for me, I found out that he actually wanted to hear from me and liked to talk to me. But I had to disengage the religion and just go to a relationship. I believe that religion has a place in our society, and I do belong to a denomination, but I don’t identify religion with God. Christ was the least religious person I know.
Anyway, I’m just sharing my journey with you. Maybe it will help you, maybe it won’t. I’m not bashing anyone’s religion or anything like that, so if it came off like that, just delete me. :)
Hugs to you!
On the issue of God (that MIGHT get a wee bit more buried in the comments. Gulp…)
I did not have the best father relationship when I was young. It’s good now, but then I could not for the life of me comprehend this totally loving awesome father figure.
Still really can’t.
:S
Friend, you and I, the UU agnostic didn’t-know-she-was-Jewish-until college NYC hipster-past-her-prime, are totally on the same page.
You might even be a Unitarian, you know. :-)
And I totally cracked up. I (in a typical mistake) tried to explain cremation to my daughter and got a “OOH!!! MAGIC POWDER! I want some!!” that just broke me up into the most clearly inadequate and clunky mother ever. Until I realized I had good blog material.
HUGS!!
X
Supa
Much love to you, Loralee. You’ve been to hell and back, a few times. Perhaps if I’d been through what you have, I might believe differently myself.
Thank you for having the courage to address this topic with such candor.
I know this must have been hard for you to write about, so thank you.
Kids always do ask the most ridiculous questions in the car. Like the time my son asked me, “Why are we here?” and I said “Because this is the road to the grocery store,” and he said, “No, I mean, why are human beings alive, on Earth? What is our purpose?”
I am not Mormon, as you know. And even though I was raised in a vaguely Christian, muddled mixed-up Protestant-Catholic, way, I don’t go to church myself anymore (unless I’m going to a funeral or a wedding) and haven’t for years. I’m agnostic. So I hope I do not sound presumptuous when I say this. But. You seem to feel a bit defensive not going to church. Like people are going to criticize you for it. I guess some people probably do, in a well-meaning way, hoping they can bring you back to the comfort they feel in that place. And I just wanted to say, I feel sorry that you feel you have to defend your decision not to go. I feel like that’s extra pain you should not have to deal with on top of difficulties you have already endured – this idea that you are somehow less respectable now, because some really intense life experiences have caused you to question some parts of your faith.
I totally understand why you don’t go to church. It’s perfectly reasonable to me that a mother who lost a child would be angry at God. That feeling has happened to many grieving mothers I’ve met. I only believe in an abstract sort of God, and only on occasion, and yet I think if I were to lose my son, I’d still find a way to be angry at God about it.
Maybe I’m biased because of my own spiritual tendencies, but I also personally think that the people who question their faith, who examine it and test it, even though doing that causes them pain, are the courageous ones. I’d like to think that if there is a God, he/she would not be angry at his/her children for asking tough questions. (Even if we do it in the car while God is trying to drive.)
I am defensive about it. But that is because I have been put on the defense. (NOT by everyone, mind you)
The reason why is blunty: I live in Utah.
The ratio where I live is HUGELY Mormon. It’s not just a religion it is a culture. A life style. A very obvious one to define who is and who is not if you were raised in it.
When you aren’t, people know it. And they are not always kind.
It’s tough sometimes and be a lot of pressure.
We’ve had more conversations about this subject than I can remember- however, none of them after you’d lost your son. I can’t imagine the pain of that! Each person has their own path to take in this life- some paths are stonier than others. But we are also each given the strength necessary to deal with it. Everyone grows and changes at different times and at a different pace, and I am learning that more and more the older I get! I am very much a Mormon, and I think it is very important for us to have love and compassion for everyone- no matter their faith! I would hope others can do the same. We cannot judge others because we have not grown up with their parents, their experiences, their problems. All we can do is try to help and serve others, and try to look “Up” as much as possible!
You are definitely a gem, my long time friend. ABSOLUTELY. I love you. xo
This post is beautiful.
And I think that for where you are right now, you are doing everything exactly right. The way you are handling your children’s faith is beautiful.
I laughed. Just as I laugh every time Emilia brings up the fact that I “burned my Daddy”, even as I choke back tears. That our children can make us laugh through such grief is proof, I think, that God – or something awesome, whatever that might be – works through them.
Also, that glove analogy? So perfect.
xoxo
I love that girl.
And you.
xo
I SO SO SO SO know EXACTLY where you are coming from and what you mean. Ok, I have never lost a child. So I guess I dont understand that side of your story. But I understand your struggles with the church. And honestly, If I were you. I wouldnt be able to do it either.
I look at it this way, Do you really think after you lead a good life being a good mother and helping people where you can. Do you really think you will get to those pearly gates, face God and have him say “You were a good mother, a good friend, and never did anything wrong, but you didnt do this one little tiny thing, so SORRY you dont ever get to see your family again.” Do you really think he’s going to say that??? Do I really think ALLLL the millions of people that havent been sealed on this earth are NEVER going to see thier families again? ABSOLUTELY not!
(and I am a practicing LDS.)
I strongly disagree with that.
I am going through a rough spot with religion right now myself, I am bracing myself for that one last straw that I just feel it coming.
I think you have a good attitude about it. It must be hard. So hard. but what you are doing for your children is prefect. they may not understand now, but they will and they will be happy you allowed this for them. No matter what they choose in life.
I adore you for writing this the way you did. Very, very well written post. I won’t pretend to understand anything about religion. However, if for some reason I’m wrong and their is a heaven, I can’t believe that you would be denied an after life with your son. Just no way that I believe that. I can see why someone telling you that, would make you loose your faith. Hugs my friend. Huge hugs.
Also, I think I may use the glove thing at some point.
Oh. My. God.
RICKY SCHROEDER IS A MORMON?!?!?
BEST. COMMENT. EVER.
Snort.
I loved your post, sometimes you just have to laugh while going through such terrible, awful stuff! I have struggled a lot with my faith after losing my mom at age 25 – tragic, sudden, I witnessed it yet I survived – it was devastating. Something that helped me was the book ‘When Bad Things Happen to Good People.’ It wins the award for the corniest title in history, but is actually a really good book and helped me figure out how to conceptualize a loving God and trajedy at the same time. It is written by a rabbi and doesn’t ascribe to a particular religion. I mention it to only because it helped me so much. I now have a strong faith, although I did change denominations to find a faith community that suited me. Good luck on your search for faith and meaning and take all the time you need, God has much more patience than we do.
I have to agree with Rylee’s ideas about Heaven. I am an active Mormon. I try to live as righteously as possible, but am no where near perfect. No where. I believe that our Father would never have it be as black and white as some believe. I believe there is much more mercy within the Godhead than we realize. I have wonderful friends that aren’t LDS that I can’t believe would not have a place in the Celestial Kingdom. (Perhaps I would be at fault though for not being a good missionary…)
I can understand why, in your situation, it would be so difficult to be in church right now. I can’t even imagine the pain and turmoil you must feel. You are an excellent Mother to continue sending your children there. And it’s wonderful that their Grandparents take them.
P.S. I don’t know you in real life, but I hope I wouldn’t be one of the asshats you mention. :)
P.P.S. Ricky Schroeder is a new one for me!
I am in agreement with you and Rylee. I DO believe I will be ok and that the Church is not as black and white as some believe.
The huge problem is that I live in Utah where it is no longer a faith but a culture. And that culture is everywhere and in anything.
I truly didn’t mean to imply that Mormons are all judgy asshats, but dude…so many can be and are.
Luckily, I have surrounded myself with people who love me just as I am and are very good and kind to me no matter what. And without the “love the sinner not the sin” attitude that really grates on me.
But I cannot guarantee that at church and it makes me way too guarded to even think about. (Well, that and eleventyhundred other things).
I probably should have talked about more of the good things with Mormonism (and there is a lot) but so many have asked why I left that it was the focus.
Gah?
P.S…AND HE IS A BISHOP. ;P
There are judgy asshats in every belief system. But it would be hard to live in a concentrated area of people mostly living under one belief system. Most of us don’t deal with that.
Yeah, I should clarify, regarding what I said above, that you aren’t giving me a poor impression of Mormonism. I’ve known a fair number of Mormons and all the Mormons I have PERSONALLY known have been really nice people who I liked. And frankly, a lot less judgmental than some of the Southern Baptists I used to go to church with during my father’s born-again phase.
I think there are jerks in every religion.
Well, yes. My Southern Baptist Grandmother was truly, firmly, vocally, ANTI Mormon.
Total jerk about it.
It’s mainly that it is soooooo concentrated where I live. I know if I lived somewhere else it would not be nearly as big a deal.
But I also know that depends hugely on congregation and the individual so not picking on Southern Baptists. Truly.
I’m a baptist and I believe families are forever…temple or not. Will I be with my hubs in heaven? Who knows. Will I be with my child once we are all there? Absofrigginlutely. Heaven is a place of wonderful happiness. Your child makes you happy. Therefore, I stoutly believe that you will be with him in heaven and he will be yours once more….temple or not.
I sure hope so.
I know it seems unfathomable to some but the Amish think they’re going to hell for using a car. It’s what you know, you know? :)
That was… enriching.
I can count on the fingers of one hand all the people I know personally, or ever have known in my entire life, that were, or are, not Catholic or atheist (but even atheists have Catholic background). It’s just the way it is in my country (though the question of spirituality and true faith it’s another pair of shoes). So an opportunity to see things from other point of view is wonderful. I treasure those moments when thanks to posts like yours I can through someone else’s eyes.
And this was a beautiful post. You are such a brave woman! And so strong. I admire you. With all you’ve been through… I would curl in bed and cry myself to death (but I’m a wimp). Truly, you are an amazing person.
And I love your approach to the question of your kids’ faith. I think it’s commendable.
I don’t know a lot about Mormonism. I mean, I know some bottom-line differences between the doctrine of LDS and Catholic Church, but that’s about that. But I believe that faith is a personal, intimate thing that is up to every one of us (something not everyone understand; I hate when someone is trying to convert me at all costs; I don’t mind discussions about faith, though I think they are a litlle pointless, because, as someone (I think it might be Stuart Chase, though am not sure) said, “for those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible”; but there are people that won’t listen to my words and insist that they are the only ones who are right; I already met a few people like that, only online, thanks God, and it is NOT nice).
And I can totally get why did you decide to leave your Church. I’m having second-thoughts about my Church as well, though my problem is primarly with the Church, not God. To sum it up: I believe in God without any hestitation or reservation; I have problems believing in people. And in Catcholic Church, as I recently started to realise, A LOT depends and is based on what some people in the past said or decided. I have issues with Church’s atitude and approach to many things from the present day as well, most notably gays, women, abortion and all that things that are currently so widely discussed all over the world (and certainly here). And I’m still in the middle of nowhere with trying to put together the whole of my beliefs, opinions and thoughts. Every time I try, I discover ththere are some things I didn’t think of; it’s like taking a computer to pieces and trying to put it back together: there are always some screws left that I have no idea what to do with.
ciao,
Amy.
Dude. Poland sounds a lot like Utah in the religious makeup. I feel for you as it is a tough way to live. I prefer way more diversity.
Poland is like that in pretty much every makeup :) I live in the second biggest city in the country and I never met a Jew, not personally at least (I have seen Jews, I just never talked to one), for example (and Cracow has its own historical Jewish quarter that I visit from time), I never spoke to black person (black are rarely seen on the streets; I haven’s seen any in, like, a month?), the only Arab person I talked to I met in France. Although it is true that I am highly anti-social, so maybe that’s the reason xD
Anyway, no wonder that I look for some diversity online, huh? ;)
(But I still love my country, no matter how I complain about it <3)
bisous,
Amy.
Grief sucks.
I’m a lurker, but I finally thought I’d chime in. I had a stillborn baby in march of 2003 (bad year, wasn’t it?) and I remember a week or so after I got home from the hospital standing on my back porch looking at the stars thinking, “I am at a crossroad. What do I think about God? Do I go down the road of anger or do I go down the road of faith?” It was really that pronounced. And I chose faith. But I have always been a strong believer of God and his goodness deep in my soul.
I am LDS, and I believe in the power of sealings, but even so, I believe more in the love and mercy of our Heavenly Father. And I know that any heaven we end up in will be more incredible than we ever could have imagined. And how could it be heaven if we are not there with those we love?
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I love to read about people’s relationship with religion even if (especially?) if it is different than mine.
Thank you for chiming in here. I am SO glad that you did because it comforted and helped you. I am all for that. I envy it. Truly. It just isn’t the case for me and my situation.
I have to think that if God really is a father to us all and how I feel about my own children, then yes…he is merciful and loving. That he wants us all with him (but in my head I add “No matter what” and I realize that isn’t really the way it is in the LDS faith, you know?)
I am so glad you (and the other LDS that have commented ) spoke up. I am more than a little stressed I’ve upset Mormons. Which is my last intent. xo
I am so made I am seething over this post ;) LOL
Honestly, I can totally see where you are coming from. I have a close, personal relationship with God. I also know that if I lost a child…I would TOTALLY question my relationship and why he put me in that situation! I honestly don’t know which path I would choose. I hope I would choose the path of belief but something in me says I might choose the path of no longer believing. I don’t think anyone has room to judge why another person is or isn’t practicing this or that religion or belief.
As a Mormon, we are taught to share the gospel of Christ (hence Missionaries and missionary work) but I don’t think it should ever be forced…it should be more of a “this is what we believe, if you believe you can join us…if not we move on”. In MANY ways I look at this post like just that! This is what you were taught, this is how you feel, this is what you believe and you are living what you can, where you feel comfortable. I HONESTLY think that is all that can be asked of anyone!! Living life and knowing you can live with the decisions you have made and feel like your children have a reason to be proud of you. I believe that is what you are doing and proud of you for being true to yourself!
You’re right- the glove analogy? PERFECT.
I feel your pain radiate through this post, Loralee, and I really do pray that you’re able to reconcile your feelings and emotions. I think the key, not only for you but for all of us, is to never. stop. searching. It’s fine for us to not be exactly where we want to be as we try to figure out our life’s meaning and purpose, but I do think we all owe it to ourselves to actively try to figure it out.
Good luck to you and thank you so much for sharing. This has been so enlightening. :)
It is really an awesome one, no?
It really helps kids wrap their heads around it better.
I came back to leave a link to my blog post I wrote about this. Cuz you told me to and you’re the boss <3
http://www.missdisgrace.com/2010/03/i-hate-hold-people-i-dont-want-to-talk.html
I started following you on Twitter when I learned about your loss of Matthew. Because of my own loss, I identify so deeply with mothers who have buried a child. It’s a sucky “Club” to belong to.
The convo with your boys in the car made me laugh. Kids have their own take on the world and everything, so of course it’s logical to them to know where the shovels are so that they can go play with their brother.
We are all unique and I know that we all approach the subject of death differently, but we are in this thing called “life” together. And I’m so glad to find women who can get along and support each other in spite of different beliefs.
Thank you for sharing. Really. Thank you.
Here is my post on the subject… http://bit.ly/a8FCcu
Here’s my post: http://notadiylife.blogspot.com/2010/03/on-grief-and-death.html
Having grown up in the Pentecostal Christian Church, and then being disowned for marrying my Hubs and walking away from religion altogether, I can see where you’re coming from.
Where you and I differ though, is that I don’t believe in much of what I had been taught anymore. Oh I still have faith, but I don’t believe in a lot of things that the church/my parents drilled into me when I was young.
I had a friend that committed suicide when we were 19, and according to my church, he went to Hell even though he had become a Christian a few months before. I couldn’t handle that and I choose not to believe it.
Honestly, I have the deepest respect for you and your faith. I’m not sure I could be nearly as eloquent as you if I had lost my child.
I just wanted to reply to this, as I have a situation that has plagued me for several years. I am a Roman Catholic. When I was teaching 6th grade Sunday School (CCD) I had a girl whose 19 year old brother killed himself, and she asked me point blank in class what would happen to his soul. I started to sweat, because I did not want to tell this girl the only answer I knew, the technical answer from the RCC – that he would go to hell. Technically, that is what the church teaches, but as I found out later, upon asking our priest and my cousin who is a priest, God knows what was in his heart when he did that. If a person commits suicide, clearly their heart is broken, their thinking is not clear. God knows that, and is Merciful. I still have not worked up the courage to talk to this young girl about it. I am such a chicken, but I know she was in so much pain, and I did nothing to alleviate it. I have come close a few times.
My point in all this is, most religions teach that God is good, that He is merciful.
Loralee, I have always been taught that heaven will give you all you need in the afterlife. If you need your Bug (I know you do!) he will be there, waiting for you. Until then, he is a special intercessor for you, and as a perfect little soul, if you have trouble praying to God yourself, maybe ask your perfect little intercessor to pray to Him on your behalf – God hears those little voices so perfectly!Love and Blessings to you all! Megan
Ps..the conversation with the kids in the car was HILARIOUS. Must have been a bit horrifying at the time, but omg Loralee, where do kids come up with these things?
PSS…and why the hell do they always ask us when we’re driving?
I have a really hard time with any set of beliefs that seems to ask you to jump through a set of hoops or find yourself on the outside looking in. Forever. I don’t know what’s right or even what I believe, but that’s a big obstacle for me with some sets of beliefs.
When you go through a deeply painful experience I think it’s just as valid to feel mad at God as to turn to God for comfort. If you didn’t find a lot of comfort there before it’s not surprising that you wouldn’t now.
I have faith, but I don’t belong to a church, and I don’t believe in Christ. This is hard for many people to grasp, even me.
My parents are fundamentalists, so this is also hard for them, even though they went, ermm, fundie, after I was out of the house and long gone.
I believe in the afterlife, whatever that may be, and I also believe that God will reunite us with loved ones no matter what our religion. I do not mean this as any disrespect to Mormons or any organized religion, but if God is as forgiving and loving as they claim he (or she) is–and I believe he is–then I’m sorry, he won’t let something so petty as being sealed in a temple keeping a mother away from her child. Or deny my daughter a place in heaven because I didn’t have her baptized.
He’s bigger than that–bigger than US, that much is true, at least for me.
I’m not Mormon so I have no idea what sealings or the Middle Kingdom are – but it was a fascinating read. I think folks get caught up in details because let’s face it, we’re all guessing when it comes to what happens when we die.
When my kids are older I’ll tell them I don’t have all the answers but that we can live in such a way that we help improve the world we leave behind, and in that way we’ll never be forgotten.
Fantastic post.
Being an outsider, I’ve noticed that in this country, there’s a pressure to be religious, and if you’re not, you’re somewhat of an outsider. I wasn’t raised in any particular faith, and have never attended a service of any kind. As for God? Who knows. I’m inclined to be an atheist, but am not completely there. I still pray every night, something that nobody really knows about me (until now). As much as I think religion is hogwash, and so the idea of God, something holds me back from labeling myself.
Do you live in the US? I would consider myself to be fairly religious, and I have taken a lot of heat for it. The media is so, so outrageously anti-Christian (or any religion) and my outspoken daughters have gotten HATEFUL, Horrible things said to them for being Christians. And we live in a very small, rural community. So strange how different everyone’s experiences are.
May I dare to submit, if you still pray every night, then your heart knows the truth? Blessings, Megan
Okay, first of all, the glove analogy? BRILLIANT! That sounds like such a wonderfully effective way of explaining death to children.
I must say I agree with Julie. (Gee, you think it’s because we’re sisters?) For me, my relationship with God has nothing to do with religion. There are a LOT of things I don’t agree with about the Christian church (and I’ve told God this, and I truly believe there is PLENTY He doesn’t agree with about the Christian church either.) For me, religion is all about the rules and the regulations and the “To-Do” lists that none of us will ever, ever, EVER be able to live up to. And God KNOWS that. That’s why He sent Jesus so we could be free from all the laws and expectations, and experience an actual RELATIONSHIP with the creator of the universe… at least, IMO. And honestly? I think that’s a pretty sweet deal, yo. I think if you do decide to reconsider matters of faith, maybe reconsidering it separate from “the church” and “religion” will make it easier. (And I don’t say that only in regards to the Mormon Church… I don’t care if you’re Catholic, Methodist or Evangelical… I think the most meaningful relationship is with God separte from “religion”.) ALSO… I absolutely KNOW that Matthew is not floating somewhere in a great abyss. He’s with God… and He’s experiencing much more love and joy than you can ever imagine.
Lots of love to you, Loralee!
I loved this post. I loved that you were respectful and not bashing anyones religion. Me? I’m a practicing Mormon. Always have been. But I believe that we have all been born with gifts, and mine, I think, was just faith. I have always had Faith. I have never doubted…well, I have doubted, but it’s that faith that brings me back around. And I truly feel blessed for that. I know, know, KNOW that you will be with your baby again. Because as so many have said, you are a good person and Heavenly Father wouldn’t work any other way. Heaven simply would not be heaven if we weren’t with our children and the ones that we love. Thank you for being you. Thank you for sharing your loss and grief with the rest of it and how you are dealing with it.
Thanks, girls, I’ve just read over all the posts. Yours, Loralee, is so Anne-Lamott-like in its humor, faith, and poignancy. In my overt beliefs, I’m on the Unitarian Universalist/Buddhist/atheistic side that says it’s fine to live now, and then it will be fine to pass along, like a lovely wildflower returning to the earth, which doesn’t need to carry its “2003 summer flower” ego from blooming to blooming.
What struck me is that we observe death happening, from an early age, so we know the concept. But we still deeply believe in and wish for exemptions for ourselves. Other people’s loved ones die and it’s sad, but when MY loved ones die, it’s a horrible, tragic mistake. If it shakes people’s “faith,” that faith starts to look more like bargaining with God than aligning with the will of a Universe that is bigger, more creative, and ultimately more loving than we are.
This is a core resistance to the way things actually are, and that’s why I practice Zen Buddhism. I know my husband Eric and I will eventually be separated, and I can see from here (age 50) the real prospect for panic on my part. So I have to practice now, work to accept life As It Is, and get my bratty little ego ready for it to happen to ME, too.
Loralee, I’m not mormon, but I’ve shared your struggle for faith. I’ve blogged about that, not in relation to death and grief, but in my own experience in learning to separate God from followers of God. In my personal belief system He is bigger than and outside of any religious sect or denomination. He just IS. It took me years to get over being angry with God, and I imagine there will be many times in my life where I will struggle with that again. Every person’s spiritual journey is intrinsically personal and IMO not subject to the criticism or outside interpretation of others. I do want to say that I think you did a lovely job of explaining your background, beliefs, struggle and current state of mind without being offensive or judgmental of anyone or even your own faith.
My grandmother passed away last spring, and because of issues with my then-spouse, I needed to take my young children with me to the funeral and burial. I was really surprised to walk into the funeral parlor to an open casket; no one had told me that would be the case. I was really concerned about how my kids would react, especially now that they would know at the burial that there was a real person in the casket, someone they had known when she still contained the spark of life. My daughter, who has some issues with emotion and reciprocity, was very clinical and curious about everything. She was fascinated by the entire process from beginning to end, asked lots of questions which I answered as factually as possible. My son, who was four at the time, was interested but also pretty upset. At the graveside service, he walked away with my sister while they were lowering the casket into the ground. He was sad because he thought he would never see great-grandma again, but after my sister explained that any time he wanted to remember what she looked like that he could go into our photo albums and see her picture, he was greatly relieved.
Recently one of our family dogs died unexpectedly, and we buried her together, so the kids also had the experience of being able to give her one last pet, hug & kiss, and to say their goodbyes as we put her into the ground in our pasture. My daughter and I had a long talk about heaven and death and where people and animals go. I try to be very careful about making sure she knows that what I am telling her is what *I* personally believe, and that other people have different thoughts on the subject. She understands pretty well already that her parents have vastly different beliefs on this subject and also that neither of us will tell her she has to agree with either of us, that she should think about it carefully and form her own opinions about what happens to us when we die, whether God is real, whether Jesus is real, and what she thinks of all that. We still cry about our lost Lady dog, and the kids have repeated to me fears about me dying, or them dying, and we always talk about it carefully. I acknowledge that accidents can happen, but that I don’t intend to die and leave them alone any time soon. They seem to be doing very well with the entire subject, so I hope I am handling it appropriately for them. I’m not sure there is one “right” way to handle it; the well-adjustedness of the kids around the issue is as far as I can tell the only gauge of whether I’m doing OK.
Mary, you sound like a wonderful person. There are many thoughtful people on this thread and it is such a pleasure (well, kind of a pleasure, considering the subject) to read it all.
I am a reader of Linsey’s blog and found these discussions to be comforting to read about others dealing with death in thier conversations with thier little ones. My father commited suicide 2 years ago and despite my wishes for my children to not know this fact about my father until they were old enough to understand the reverence needed to be shown in regards to something like this, they were told by “who-knows-who” and I was left to deal with thier morbid thoughts and questions of his decision. I know you wont hate me for saying that I am an active LDS member after reading your blog. And for what it is worth, no matter what any of us believe, you will always be your son’s mother and nothing in this life or any other life can change or take that away. Sealed or not sealed, I dont believe that a loving Father in Heaven would ever take that away from you. He is and will always be yours.
Oh, man.
I understand so much of this and thank you deeply for the rest of it.
I am so, so, SO very sorry about your father. That is so very hard. I absolutely will not hate you for being an active LDS person. Some of my favorite people in the world are active LDS.
Like my children. :)
xoxoxo
I love Lindsay’s blog. I am an old(er) Mom, really old(er) and I want you to know that I do believe you will meet your sweet precious baby boy again. I do believe in God and no matter what any of us perceive him (her) to be I believe our Hell is literally right here on earth!
Loved your post, you sound like a wonderful, warm, caring, Momma to your little chickadees. Hang in there. I promise you things will get better because of your awesome approach to life. That and you are funny too. Hugs to you! :)
I haven’t seen this before, but there’s a coincidence: one of my friends updated her blog 6 days ago with a note that tells exactly about talking with her daughter (Natalia, age 4, almost 5) about death. She’s atheist, I think, but, as always, with Catholic background. The post is in Polish, so I’ll try to translate:
“I was asked about death just today. My daughter is entering the period of existential questions. We’re sitting, drinking tea and talking.
- Am I gonna die?
- Yes, someday.
- And when I die it will be forever or can I stop being dead if I get bored?
- Unfortunately not. And yes, it’s forever.
Natalia’s starting to cry. I’m explaining that all in all it’s good that you someday die, at least you won’t get bored with life and everything is unique and only once. And that’s why it is so precious that we’re sitting now and talking about death. Because it’s only for a moment. Like a balloon, it is and then it won’t be anymore, in this form at least.
- But the dead people have to lie down. And lying is boring – the daughter’s sobbing.
- No, it’s not that bad. Firstly, when you die it doesn’t drag anymore. I think. And again, you don’t lie down all the time, your body decays. To ashes. And then you’re not lying anymore. As the ash you can be even blown with the wind. Like a dandelion.
And the daughter liked that.”
(Original here: http://dziennikkota.blogspot.com/2010/03/zycie-jak-balonik-smierc-jak-dmuchawce.html)
:)
ciao,
Amy, again :D
I super-dee-duper-lee love your blog. I like your honesty and borderline psychotic sense of humor. And I raise my glass to your ability to talk about the difficult things with humor.
I think every religious group thinks it has all the answers about who gets to Heaven. It reminds me that old joke about someone new to Heaven getting a tour of the place. They walk (float?) by a room with a bunch of people singing and praying and the tour guide angel says, “Shhhh. Those are the Baptists (or Methodists or Mormons or Catholics, etc ). They think they’re the only ones here.”
Humor is my greatest shield and weapon.
I would die without it.
xo
I recently discovered you and I LOVE you! I love honesty and more importantly people who can be honest. I am sorry for your loss. I am very very sorry for your horrible loss and the pain it has caused you and your family. I am LDS and was so touched by some of the things you said. It was so raw. Thank you for sharing. You are my new hero.
P.S. – I read that you hate when people steal your ideas but what about words? I laughed so hard when I read elventyhundred. Can I use that sometimes if my life if I promise not to blog it? :)
AWE! THANK YOU!!
I have a lot of people rip my posts off word for word, cut and paste. THAT is what pisses me off. Your request is just really flattering. :)
And “Eleventyhundred” doesn’t just belong to me so go right on ahead! (I would say that even if it DID belong to me. SuckasuckasuckaSUCK pops up online all the time, and I am pretty sure that IS mine. And I love it.)
I adopted the term “Threeve” from someone so sharing can be AWESOME.
I know this is buried and probably doesn’t mean much, but seriously. If you DID piss off any Mormons (which I CANNOT believe any would be upset at a true and lovely story of someone’s personal journey of faith!) then…blllllllpppppttttt. So there.
I’m so very, very glad that I get to be one of your “non asshat” Mormon friends. The year after my divorce taught me a lot: a lot about my own faith, a lot about the culture here, a lot about how the Gospel and the Culture ARE and SHOULD be two different things and how most of the time people do not treat it as so. It also taught me that we all have our lot in life and everyone goes about / chooses different things and, for the most part (ya know…serial killers and all) that’s ok. If my son grows up and has half the kindness and clarity about TRUE Christlike love that you show your friends and your kids? Then….well, then. He’ll be ok.
And that is what THIS Mormon thinks about all of this. It was simply beautiful.
You are so not an asshat. I would not hang with you if you were. I am really blessed to have a lot of loving, open people give me huge hugs.
And the barbs have been there, but I have to try and brush it off. It was time to talk about this, you know?
You post is beautiful. I am a practicing LDS convert. So much of what you said and how you feel I think about on a regular basis. I feel like I am constantly re-evaluating my beliefs. I also know I could never live in Utah…the church as culture is too much for me. I’m much happier in my Pacific NW lifestyle with my non-member friends and family.
We work very hard to make sure our children do not grow up to be asshats. Treat everyone with love and respect and value those who do not see life the same way that we do.
I have no idea what it is like to experience the pain of losing a child, but I know that kind of pain changes us. In the end, we just need to find what makes it possible for us to get through this life.
I think that me living here has hurt me in that respect. It’s like trying to eat concentrated OJ out of the can.
I often wonder if I lived out of state if things would have been much different, you know?
I loved the last paragraph of your comment. Pain on this level changes everything.
Mmmmm. I LOVE concentrated OJ out of the can. Oh, wait. What was the point?! :)
I agree with you COMPLETELY about souls. And that glove analogy? GENIUS.
I don’t know much about Mormonism, but I completely disagree that if you don’t go through some ceremony (or whatever), you’re not sealed to your son. You ARE bonded (sealed, whatever) to your son in every way a mom can be bonded to her son – in life AND in death and I believe that you WILL see him again. But that’s just me.
I think it’s AMAZING that you have that openness about your children discovering religion and faith for themselves and that you don’t bar them from going just because you don’t want to go. Loralee, you are an AMAZING mom!!! Your sons (all 4 of them) are very lucky to have you.
xoxo
I love this post. I love your honesty. I have a post in draft right now that feels pretty terrifying for me to post, because it could upset much of the LDS community (including my dear old grandmother), but you may have just tipped the scales for me.
Thank you.
It’s pretty scary and the cost can be high to be yourself. If you want to email me about it (Or read a draft) and give my opinion I’d be more than happy too. This post took me 5 years to be able to write, so yeah…tis hard.
loraleechoate (at) gmail (dot) com. :)
Mention in the subject I asked you to send it (if you do. no pressure)
The pain of losing a child has to change everything forever, because it is such a profoundly devastating experience. I could imagine that you could not possibly go on living in the skin you were in when you lost that baby. It would feel like you were in a rotting carcass. That’s why you turning away from your religion seems almost an obvious solution, and I understand exactly what you mean when you say you had to walk away. I am so sorry, Loralee, that you had to endure this tragedy. I am sorry in a way that I can’t adequately articulate. But please know, you are loved, and heard, and we are all out here for you. No matter what you decide to do religion-wise. May you find peace in a new day, and in the knowledge that there are so many hugging you from afar.
“The pain of losing a child has to change everything forever, because it is such a profoundly devastating experience. I could imagine that you could not possibly go on living in the skin you were in when you lost that baby. It would feel like you were in a rotting carcass. That’s why you turning away from your religion seems almost an obvious solution, and I understand exactly what you mean when you say you had to walk away.”
I am not sure I have read a better description then this. Truly.
There are not words for how it changes you (or at least me). Some people are more able to hold on and rebound. It has taken me a very long time.
But honestly…in the last recent while…I am happier then I have been in more time then I can remember.
Which is a VERY good thing. :)
Love you xo Thank you for this post. Yesterday (maybe today for you) was the one year anniversary of my nan’s passing. though I am not a practising anything at the moment, for me I believe we when our bodies have gone to rest, the soul connection is still there. Though we knew nan was passing (she had brain cancer) it was still hard (a child passing though, that’s that a**hole of all)and I am still going through the phases.
Your glove analogy rocks! by the way ;o)
Thank you again, you have allowed me to find the strength to write again, in a personal manner, that may upset people, but for me I think I need to tell my story, even if it’s in a private matter. xo
(I do hope this is making sense, sometimes my mind is going like a thousand miles a minute and I want to get it all out)
Oh, I am so sorry. Anniversaries as SO HARD.
SO hard.
I’m glad you are writing again (Meant to email…I don’t use a reader anymore. Twitter has turned into my reader…so if you feel like there is a post you just love, I would LOVE you to tweet or send me a link!!)
Much love babe. xo
Thanks hun….. and indeed they are hard as you know xoxo
Will DM you on twitter with any new posts I write, as at the moment, I am not displaying that particular blog in the public eye if I can help it…
Much love back to you xo
This is my first time coming to your site and I am so glad that I did. This post was beautiful and heartbreaking. I don’t know you, but I love you all the same. You have touched my heart in ways that cannot be explained.
Sometimes I feel like what I do is of no use to anyone so man…thank you for that. xo
Sorry, I messed up the link to my blog. It is good now.
You know I love you…. We share a brain.
I do have to add that the things I have a problem with are things that I TRULY have a PROBLEM with. Prop 8 was the straw that broke this camels back, but prior to prop 8, I had big problems with “families are forever” Because guess what? They aren’t. I had a family, my family of birth, And when my parents got divorced, we weren’t a family any more. My previous marriage, though sealed in the temple, is no longer together, so how Families can be together forever is preached is difficult for me to listen to. because FAMILIES ARE NOT ALWAYS FOREVER!
The other HUGE bug is the whole polygamy thing. If you think I am going to share Brandon with a sister wife, you’ve got a serious problem there my Lord.
End Rant.
Is it okay if I rant because I am a fellow Mormon? If it’s not okay, please delete this and don’t give it a second thought. I promise I won’t feel badly. Because like you, I can rant all day about the church, but if others start bitching about it, I get defensive.
Babe, this was not hateful nor disrespectful. You have issues with the theology, as do I.
I didn’t mean people couldn’t say anything, but I didn’t want any hatefulness here. This isn’t even close to that. That whole “Others bitching” thing is appropriate. Protective of it because I think as a whole Mormons see a WHOLE lot of persecution to varying levels. It’s like family…I can bitch about them all day long but if someone ELSE does, look out!! :)
Me love you long time.
And yeah…I have very strong feelings about Prop. 8 so I hear you. xoxoxoxoxo
Thank you so much for your post today! I’ve been trying to figure out how to put in words where I am right now in my faith. Maybe having lost faith somewhere along the way and not knowing how to get it back. I appreciate your openness and honesty.
I’m sort of in the same boat. Grew up in a VERY Catholic family. Married a guy that was not only not Catholic but divorced. GASP. Our marriage could not be blessed and is not valid in the eyes of the church. In the middle of all that, my mother…my very best friend, died. I was pissed. I’m still pissed. But at my core, I’m Catholic and I’m putting all my children through their sacraments so that they can make their own choice as adults. And maybe some day I’ll be better at being Catholic again too. Who knows.
…and by the way, I laughed at the kids talking back and forth. It’s healthy that you can hear it and process it and know where their little minds are and appreciate the thought process. You are a great mom.
And OMG to clarify…not that I would ever equate losing my mom to the pain of losing a child. I realized, and perhaps you heard me scream all the way from Texas, that that may have come off wrong. My loss went in the natural order of things. I don’t know if I could handle what you have gone through…
Ha! Oh, I couldn’t agree more about the laughing amidst death idea. My father passed away unexpectedly 2 years ago. I was 25, but I don’t think anyone gets used the idea of their parents dying. It was an especially traumatic situation {having to tell my mother the CPR was not working because he was already gone, watching what happens to a body after its organs stop functioning, etc.}.
The ONLY way my family got through it was: #1: Our knowledge that my dad was in Heaven and that he would never experience pain or sickness again, and #2: Having a sense of humor!
What’s funny is that people seem to have more of a problem with #2. They don’t understand how my mom, sister, and I can laugh about how my mom almost accidentally set the phonebook ON my dad as if he was a table when we were in the ER after he had officially passed away and she needed to look up the phone number to the funeral home.
But you know what? Who the heck cares?! Your grief is your grief. You deal with it whatever way you can. I admire you for your candor and hope it inspires more people to bare their souls the way you have. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us!
~ Natalie
I have had many issues of my own with God over the years and have only recently found my way back to church. I had to do it for me. No one else.
The conversation between you and your boys about Matthew DID make me smile..but only because I could see the thought processes behind it.
Thank you for sharing your story with us :)
[...] and all his friends Posted on March 11, 2010 by mommymae loralee, catherine, julie, lindsay & devra all posted today about how they, as an inactive mormon, a [...]
Wow. You are speaking my language, using words and phrases I endured FOR YEARS and did not believe in and I can sympathize. I think the Mormon religion is its own worst enemy; micro-managing religious notions and faithful followers to a fault, to a point where the people who want to believe, be obedient, be Christ-like can’t be as perfect as they’re expected to be and therefore fall away, being made to feel like they’ve failed or done something wrong.
I was never a faithful person, always a skeptic. I wish I had/have something to believe in. It’s not a matter of stubbornness, just simply not being able to find reason behind The Way Things Happen For A [Good!] Reason which the Mormon church is so fond of.
Despite my lack of faith, I too find myself defending the church I do not believe in at times. (There are so many false rumors and for the most part, I believe Mormons are very good natured, generous people.) However, there are too many issues the church and I will never see eye to eye on (gay marriage, the misogynist attitude when it comes to leadership, etc.).
I laughed and I got teary reading your post.
Like you, I am not certain what comes next but I HAVE to believe that we just don’t stop being. We have to go somewhere. We cant just end.
But Matthew is waiting for you and until then, he lives on in your heart and his siblings hearts and now mine too.
(((Thanks for visiting and commenting on my site too!!)))
I am following the link from Suburban Turmoil and this is the first time I have visited your blog but it will definitely not be the last. Ordinarily I do not like to talk about religion unless someone specifically asks for my views because I believe everyone has a right to make their own choices and follow their own beliefs and when two people believe differently we just have to live and let live. But reading this post I just for once had to say something. First of all it is very brave of you and must have been very hard to write this post. After what happened to you son I can completely understand you questioning everything you had previously believed – how could something so awful occur and why. I also admire you for still introducing your children to religion and allowing them to learn and later then make up their own minds. My parents are not religious but they took us to church when we were old enough to learn and understand and let us decide for ourselves what we believed and did not believe. I am not religious either – I think there is some explanation too incredible for us human beings to fathom as to how and why we all got here but that the things that happen in life just do – good and bad, it’s the luck of the draw. No one is judging us and deciding who gets to have a good life and who doesn’t. But when the time comes I will introduce my daughter to religion too, and let her decide for herself and support her beliefs whatever she decides.
Sometimes it IS hard for all of us (LDS), I think, at one time or another we realize that for one reason or another- the “rules” pertaining to our familial status in the afterlife may in the end deal us an “unfair” blow… such as your situation with your son.
The thing is… the more I’ve listened and learned and questioned.. my understanding- and what I choose to believe, is that the rules are really more “guidelines”- and that Heavenly Father loves us more than to just be a heartless beaurocrat who will only look at our paperwork and assign us thusly without regard for our personal circumstances. Basically- my understanding and belief about our complicated and tangled personal situations.. is that God will sort them out in a loving and compassionate way… so, I do believe that regardless of your temple sealing situation… you will be with your son… HF knows your heart and he knows every little hurt and misfortune and ugliness that has etched itsself into your life and he takes all of it into account.
I think in the end, he will surprise you with his compassion and love for you.
Came over from Her Bad Mother’s place.
I am so, so sorry for your loss.
And your children’s discussion of it (with the conclusion about the shovels) made me laugh so much I was crying in my cube. Kids are wonderful. I have many, many similar discussions with my 5yo and 3yo, in the car, when I am half distracted by trying not to let other drivers kill us already.
Loralee,
When I was growing up my grandfather and great uncle would have heated debates about religion and politics. It was especially a tradition during our Passover seder, and if you’ve ever seen Fiddler on the Roof, you know my people are big on Tradition! Tradition! One such debate left one yelling at the other and this was the exchange:
My uncle, a Socialist who no longer practiced any religion, accused,”I don’t even know how you can believe all of this hypocrisy.” and my grandfather retorted, “It’s easy, I don’t believe in all of it, I just choose one of the many and believe in that one.” So you make your choice as to what fits into your life and go with it. You’ve had a huge loss, but in it have gained so much perspective and it was brave of you to share it here. Some questions in life (and about death) just never have answers that will satisfy us, so we just do the best we can and hope it all turns out okay in the end. Whatever The End ends up being. I’m so happy I stumbled into the room when I did at the CheeseburgHer party.
My best friend’s 18month old son was killed on Oct 23rd, 2009. His birthday is this Sunday. Reading your post, especially the glove, was amazing and something that I will share with her. Her older boys are 6 & 4 and are handling things currently, but as you said you never really know how they are doing.
Thank you for a great post and being so honest.
Hugs to you. I have not lost a child but I have watched my son struggle to live many times over the last 3 exhausting years. I, too, struggle with faith after a very religious upbringing. What kind of God would do this to a child? People well-meaningly say my son is an example of how to fight hard and that he’s a blessing to many people. Screw that. I don’t want him to be an example. I selfishly want him to live an easy life and be happy without having to be a “blessing.”
I admire your ability to so eloquently put your feelings to paper/screen. I try and fumble many times and come across as a heathen who doesn’t believe in God. Like you, I believe in a higher power, I just don’t know what that higher being is. I believe in a community of faith in goodness. I believe in good people. I believe that I should do my best to make the people and the world around me better.
And THANK YOU for making it okay to laugh. I snorted reading about your other child knowing where the shovels are! A lot of people see my humor as gallows humor but I wouldn’t know how to survive otherwise. The event that started the hardest part of my son’s journey happened in a hospital. After everything settled down, a nurse and I were laughing uncontrollably in the hall about a comment someone made while it was happening. Most people think it was stress, but it wasn’t entirely; it was just a really funny comment. I cherish that moment more than most because it let me know that laughter is what is going to get me through this. Laughter -and alcohol- are the great equalizers. If I can figure out how God fits in there, I’ll let you know.
I can understand what you are going through in your confusion about your church. I am having a “difference of opinion” with our church of 12 years. I finally got fed up and we have been attending a different church for the last three weeks. But it’s just not as cut and dried as that. Our church is our family, our social life, and our responsibility and it is tough to go back to being the “new kid” who doesn’t know anyone in the new church. It’s awkward and I don’t know how to explain it to people or even if we should have to explain it. Now they are calling me to help with different activities that I normally would help with and I’m conflicted.
Do I stay strong and stay mad, or do I just let bygones be bygones? I don’t know. I feel like it’s more of a trial separation than a divorce and not having been through either of those, I don’t quite know how to do that.
I totally get the part about laughing, because if you don’t it will kill you. That’s my number one survival tactic.
I’m a mormon. Active, married to an RM in the temple, calling-holding, coffee-deploring (though Diet Dr Pepper inhaling) card carrying mormon.
But from Sunday to Sunday, I’m not entirely sure what I think of it. (During the week I try not to think about it much.) I have issues with everything from Prop 8 to temple ceremonies to the role of women to our somewhat problematic church history. Baskets O Issues. It’s why I don’t talk about religion on my blog, other than anecdotally.
But I like church. It works for me. I love the goodness that surrounds me there (even though I know mormons don’t have the market cornered in that arena). So I choose it. I would like to believe it wholeheartedly. I would like to have more faith than I do. But we work with what we have, and that’s what I have – a lot of doubt but also love for the people, love for my heritage, and a desire to be a good person. (And a desire not to have my kids be shunned socially, let’s be honest.)
My bishop once told me he doubted I’d ever be able to get off the fence, I had the post stuck so far up my rear. He’s probably right.
I was married to a jack Mormon for 23 years from a family of Temple Mormons. I totally get it. I was raised Catholic and did not convert. This made me hugely unpopular as you well know.
LDS are great great wonderfully great people. It’s a flaw in all very religious people that they cannot get past the, you’re not active therefore not really one of us, stage.
Our relationship with God is intimately personal. Everyone of us will stand before the Father in eternity. I tell people, ‘Don’t worry, it’s between me and God. And me and God, are good.’
And so are you!
*hugs*
Thank you. Not LDS here. We are Methodist. But I’ve been struggling, big time, with my faith as of late. Thank you for this post. Thank you for being you.
My son is 3.5 years old and we have not had any type of death discussion with him yet. The topic has come up before, and we have told him that if you die you go away forever, but he’s too young to really care or understand. I don’t know what we’ll tell him when he gets older, but it’s something to think about.
I call myself a “buffet table spiritualist”: I pick what I like, and leave the rest.
I totally believe that we get to be with our loved ones in the afterlife.
Love the glove analogy, and your kids’ conversation, too! ;D
My heart goes out to you as you struggle with your faith. I grew up in a very conservative Mennonite religion and can tell you that I became confused about who God is. About age 30, after losing my dear mom to cancer, I felt drawn to find out more about God. What I have found is that religion isn’t about rules and laws and traditions. It is about a relationship with God through His son Jesus Christ. His word, the Bible, untouched by human interpretation or additions or deletions is living and active and has transformed my life.
When you seek God with all your heart and ask Him to show you a relationship, He is faithful and guides you. I think that we are all created with an emptiness that only God can fill and we get so distracted by what the world has to offer and tells us is right that we close the truth of God out of our lives. I pray that you will seek and find the creator and source of life! It is so much simpler than our “religions” make it to be.I am studying the book of John this year, and as I read it and obey what I hear…His Spirit teaches, and I am in awe and amazed by the power of His love and peace. Peace to you and your family~ J
It sounds like to me you stopped going to church because it was too “hard” for you. And because you have a chip on your shoulder about not being sealed.
If you really do believe in this religion, then why not go back? If it really is your religion of choice, as you say, then why would it not be worth working for? “Hard” things and all?
I struggled in faith too. And I finally came to the conclusion that it was “faith” that was the problem for me. I am a very comfortable atheist at this stage of my life. Which makes death painful and sad but I approach it with the reminder to myself that people live on in all of the lives that they touched. Your son is now part of his brothers and of everyone else who loved him (whether or not you believe him to be in the arms of the Heavenly Father). I have friends of many faiths and I respect them all. Our hearts and heads are so complicated. Thank you for sharing such a vulnerable part of yourself, it reminds us of how simply human we are.
I love that you wrote this, I know it’s hard to articulate all the thoughts and feelings surrounding faith and death and losing a child, I still cannot do it. Not as thoroughly as you did. I lost my newborn daughter to a birth defect. We found out mid-pregnancy that she wouldn’t live long, so we had time to grieve and prepare our 2 yr old son. Wish I’d known about the glove analogy, that really is perfect. My mind just reels at the sudden loss of a 4 month old, I am so sorry. Death is a not-uncommon discussion topic at our house, too, which disturbs a few friends who can’t even bear to discuss a pet dying with their kids. But our kids ask about their baby sister in heaven, ask why the doctors couldn’t fix the hole in her head, and for some reason often confuse baby Jesus with their baby sister. We do try to correct that, but it seems apt to me. We are supposed to love our babies, and all mankind, like they are Jesus, right? I believe your son will be waiting for you, just as Jesus will. I don’t think God is ever about keeping our love apart. Matthew’s love sprang from yours, I have faith it will be reunited.
[...] We don’t go to church, but we make sure our kids go. [...]
Loralee,
I was directed to your blog from the R house. And although I have a very long story such as you. I read this post with tears in my eyes. I could not believe how much I agree with so many of your words. I also grew up LDS. In Utah much of my life. It wasn’t until I moved away about 6 years ago, that I was really able to discover my own thoughts and feelings, about not only who I was, and what I really wanted to be without the influence of so many others. But I also discovered that “people” are good! And it didn’t take me long to decide that the wonderful people of so many other religions I came across, would also be with me wherever we are in the end. Like you, I do struggle with many of the principles although I do still take my kids to church more times than not. I have never fit the “perfect” mold of mormonism either, and probably never will. But for once in my life I am O.K. with that! If people want to judge me so be it! I also lost a son and have felt all of those same feelings. Thanks for sharing! Also I just moved to Oklahoma from Vegas…and I enjoyed your pictures on the Ranch! I try to read Ree’s blog everyday to remind myself that people can be happy here! :) Thanks Again! Love your blog!
[...] I lost my religion. A big deal for anyone but a *really* big deal in Utah. But I gained a sense of peace. [...]